Bluebird or SC3?

[ejralph]

Hi guys

I am thinking of getting a new kiln - can't make me mind up though. I am torn between the SC3 and the Bluebird XL. I know I want firebrick not fibre, but apart from that all I want is one for annealing. Fusing and other stuff I can do in one of my other kilns.

Is anyone using the Bluebird XL? is it reliable?

Which one has the lowest energy consumption, ampage etc?

How many beads can you get in the SC3 (or an SC2 for that matter - I am open to anything right now). I am drawn to the bluebird because I don't want to run out of space torching all day, but the more compact size of the SC models also appeals, as does the fact they are well tried and tested models.

Argh....decisions, decisions!

Emma 

[glassworks]

we have both, and we are therefore equally biased...

for beadmaking and small fused pieces with a bit of pmc type work - the xl wins hands down.. far bigger bead doors, much more stable temps, lower energy use... but it is BIG!!!!!! really really really BIG!!! ;-)

for general glass use, including beads etc, and taller pmc pieces or fused work, the sc3 is great... it is also very convenient in size, and is actually big enough for most everything you will do as a beadmaker/jewellery maker...

also, as a general note - they are both excellent in terms of "flogability" - so if you get one and decide you actually want t'other, there are loads of folks who will have your arm off and make crossgrading very easy!..

my version of this diallema is the SC3 for hobby/single user/creative use and the XL if you have a studio/production/and bigger output along with the odd class or group sessions...

(the bluebird XL is our biggest seller - followed by the SC3, so that tells you all you need to know about how popular they are!  )

[Lush!]

I've got the SC3 but some days when I'm really really in the mood I do kind of fill it!

[Redhotsal]

Emma,

I have the old style Fibre blanket lined Bluebird. If it's the same size as the XL actually - it's not that big. I can easily fill mine up in a day (and I'm not bragging). Don't know what I'd do with a SC2 - not nearly enough space. Don't forget - when you put in a fresh bead it is very sticky - so you need a space for the fresh beads away from the others. Having spent a week at Di Easts and spending needless time juggling garaged beads around to make room the whole bead door/kiln thing has really got on my nerves.

Di has a Caldera - which I quite like despite it looking like it was cobbled together by goblins (there are stretched out jubilee clips holding the metal skin over the firebricks. Neat thing about the Caldera is that it has a lower floor so your beads go downwards headfirst. On a Bluebird there is a tray (a really sharp tray) on the outside which is supposed to hold the mandrels. But if you use it you can't get the doors closed properly, so I took mine off. Now when I open a bead door I get a jackpot of falling red hot mandrels.

Actually- I'm not the best person to ask about kiln advice - I HATE THEM ALL WITH THEIR STUPID BEAD DOORS!!!!!

Warning - the old style Bluebird can only go up to 600 degrees, or something like that - so you won't be doing any PMC or fusing in it - better check out the max temp of the XL?

None of them come with any kiln furniture so be prepared to spend a few happy hours fashioning a suitable rack out of old mandrels.

Di also had a Plowden and Thomson annealler which looked pretty damn ugly but was as good as a SC2 so you might want to check that one out.

If you go for anything Paragon do note that you will have the standard Sentry Programmer - a programmer so damned complicated to fathom out there actually is a Youtube video telling you how to control it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyJc0tiwi1Y

Good Luck.

[Zeldazog]

Hi guys

I am thinking of getting a new kiln - can't make me mind up though. I am torn between the SC3 and the Bluebird XL. I know I want firebrick not fibre,

You say you know you want firebrick - isn't the SC range ceramic fibre?  Or have things changed? God, I hate the kiln decision!

[ejralph]

Hi guys

I am thinking of getting a new kiln - can't make me mind up though. I am torn between the SC3 and the Bluebird XL. I know I want firebrick not fibre,

You say you know you want firebrick - isn't the SC range ceramic fibre?  Or have things changed? God, I hate the kiln decision!

Thanks Dawn

I just worked that one out myself actually, checking out the paragon website. Why did I always think the SC3 was brick? der!

Thanks for confirming though, since that was gonna be my next question!

Emma

[Redhotsal]

The old style Bluebird is Fibre but there is a new one which is firebrick.
You might be thinking of the Caldera which IS firebrick...

[glassworks]

excellent feedback already!!..

the xl is a LOT bigger than the standard bluebird - and weighs a HELL of a lot more.. the bead doors (and hence the kiln space itself) is also a few inches in all dimensions bigger, and it has a lot more volume.. i have a pic somewhere with both, let me dig it out for comparison, as i am sure there is an sc3 in the background on the same shot..

the sc3 in ceramic fibre lined, and hence the element wires are secured and not affected by any chemicals etx which may cause long term corrosion or damaged to them..

i have to agree that the whole bead door thing is a bit strange, as there does not appear to be any way to have mandrels in there and yet still close the door completely?.. we have to admit that we are used to it now so it does not bother us much, beyond hoping that someone will design a better way!...

we pre-programme the kilns precisely because the controllers can take a bit of getting used to - once you have run through a few programmes it does make a lot more sense, but the first few times it can be a little confusing if you have to try and figure it out for yourself from the manuals!!..

also please note allt he new kilns "smoke" a lot of chemicals etc when run for the first time - the number of paniced phone calls we've had bear testament to the "smelly" kiln when they first get turned on!!..

[Zeldazog]

Sal I like your comment about the Caldera looking as though it was cobbled together by Goblins.... so true!

[Redhotsal]

Got this off the Paragon website:

TEMPERATURE 
A kiln's maximum operating temperature sets limits on the materials and processes you can use. 1290°C is the highest temperature that standard kilns reach: above that, the materials and construction have to change, and the cost increases dramatically.

The maximum temperature is not related to the wattage: so a 4800W kiln does not get twice as hot as a 2400W kiln. The temperature depends on the elements, the firing chamber volume, and the programmer.
As with any device you buy, a kiln is not designed to be run full-on all the time. So, if you need to fire at 925°C for a long time, buy a 1095°C kiln, not a 925°C kiln. To give you a feel for temperature, here are the melting points for a few common materials:

MATERIAL °C
aluminium 659
copper 1083
glass 1700
gold 1063
lead 163
nickel 1452
platinum 1772
silver 951
steel 1371
tungsten 3399

Blimey - it would appear that NONE of Paragon's kiln are able to supply enough temperature to melt glass - will someone please inform all the fusers?

[glassworks]

lol.... 

[ejralph]

Emma,

I have the old style Fibre blanket lined Bluebird. If it's the same size as the XL actually - it's not that big. I can easily fill mine up in a day (and I'm not bragging). Don't know what I'd do with a SC2 - not nearly enough space. Don't forget - when you put in a fresh bead it is very sticky - so you need a space for the fresh beads away from the others. Having spent a week at Di Easts and spending needless time juggling garaged beads around to make room the whole bead door/kiln thing has really got on my nerves.

Di has a Caldera - which I quite like despite it looking like it was cobbled together by goblins (there are stretched out jubilee clips holding the metal skin over the firebricks. Neat thing about the Caldera is that it has a lower floor so your beads go downwards headfirst. On a Bluebird there is a tray (a really sharp tray) on the outside which is supposed to hold the mandrels. But if you use it you can't get the doors closed properly, so I took mine off. Now when I open a bead door I get a jackpot of falling red hot mandrels.

Actually- I'm not the best person to ask about kiln advice - I HATE THEM ALL WITH THEIR STUPID BEAD DOORS!!!!!

Warning - the old style Bluebird can only go up to 600 degrees, or something like that - so you won't be doing any PMC or fusing in it - better check out the max temp of the XL?

None of them come with any kiln furniture so be prepared to spend a few happy hours fashioning a suitable rack out of old mandrels.

Di also had a Plowden and Thomson annealler which looked pretty damn ugly but was as good as a SC2 so you might want to check that one out.

If you go for anything Paragon do note that you will have the standard Sentry Programmer - a programmer so damned complicated to fathom out there actually is a Youtube video telling you how to control it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyJc0tiwi1Y

Good Luck.

Thanks for your comments Sal

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer and relegate the caldera to fulltime ceramics and art clay silver work.

The bluebird is tempting me the most, but I just don't know if it will fit in the space I wanna put it in! Looking at the paragon site, it is 83 cm wide!

I am used to the controller on the paragon kilns - actually I find them quite easy to use now I am used to them, although I remember it being a MF to work them out at first  

Argh

I really hate this aspect of beadmaking. I wish we could hire out brains from somewhere when we need to think stuff through and get the hire-brain to do it all and just tell us what to do.

Emma

[Redhotsal]

This also from the Paragon website:

SC meant Small Ceramic, not SilverClay. There is no longer an SC-1 kiln, the SC-2 is called an SC2 or SC2-1, the SC-2B is called an SC2 Bead Door, the SC-2W is called an SC2 Vista, the SC-2BW isn't called anything, the SC-3 is called an SC3 or SC3-4, and the SC-3BW isn't called anything.

Oh good, that's all as clear as s*** then.... 

[Redhotsal]

I'm having way too much fun picking apart the paragon website - which must mean it's time to go off and do some real work.....

[ejralph]

oh don't be mean to Paragon - they are really nice people! Even if their copywriting is somewhat dodgy!

Emma