Rob from Paragon, please read.

Started by Lee - Kilncare, July 05, 2008, 11:05:58 AM

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Lee - Kilncare

Hi Rob, for some reason while I have been away the last couple of days you appear to have made some quite strong replies to my posts. Some of them are quite personal.

I feel it is only right that am allowed the right to reply. I also hope that I can clear up a few things then we can get on again as there is nothing worse than two people bickering on any forum.

Firstly, I think it is best that you know a little about where I come from. My Dad started as a kiln engineer in 1968 and continued rising up the ranks of one of Britain's largest kiln makers until 1982 when he set up kilncare. I then started as a kiln engineer in 1984 and did three years at collage to become a qualified electrician. I too have rose to the top of Kilncare and now do all design, new models, research etc as well as repair kilns etc. So you can see I am not a sales person but a real, 24 year, time served kiln man. My Dad (Brain) still runs Kilncare with me. We both operate with the same passion for the job.

From the word go the main lesson for me was safety, safety, safety, Brain used to do my head in with it but it has stood me in good stead. It is a lesson I have passed on to the lads on the shop floor.
I was always taught and always teach, that the most important wire is not the Live or Neutral as the kiln won't work then, but the earth wire as that is the one that protects the user.

If you don't mind I'd like to run through a few of your issues one by one.

Quote. Lee .......Also, as we seem to have to do with almost every American kiln that we repair, we have to spend time bringing the earthing up to, what we believe to be a satisfactory standard before we can send it back out to the customer.
Reply Rob...... the second paragraph is ****........

Well it isn't ****actually mate, I hope you have noticed that I have not mentioned Paragon, as I said, most of the American kilns we have had earthing that we didn't like.

Meaning that with a lot of these kilns the earth cable is fixed to the back cover plate/box and was not attached to the kiln body at all.
They rely on the screws holding the cover plate/box on to provide the safety. Sometimes the cover plate/box and the kiln body they are screwed to, are painted panels so the metals aren't even effectively touching due to the paint.
Over time the screws more often than not go rusty etc.
To me it just seems like common sense that it cannot be as good as  the earth being firmly fixed to the main kiln body.

When we did a recent PAT testing certificate course and I asked the lecturer at the university if there had been any recent changes to the rules with regards to earthing and he said there hadn't.
With earthing it is widely accepted that the main body of the item is earthed, then any external panels, such as back plates and front panels that have electrics on (such as a controller mounted to them) or near, are "supplementary bonded", not just that, but with a wire size of 2.5mm. The kilns I was referring to had no earth wire to the main body or to the control panels on the front. That is not to say that they would not show a good meter test, that is to say the earth was not due to a properly fixed wire.

So, if we get a kiln in for repair, then send it out without making sure the earthing is correct then we could be in a spot of bother the way things are nowadays . I'm sure you can understand that.
I have made non of that up Rob and it is not a slur on any kiln. At no point do I lie about kilns.

We recently had an American kiln in, not a Paragon, that we had to spend almost 1 hour on making bonding straps for as the earth wire was fixed to the external box and the pins that held it on would not tighten anymore as the kiln had had quite a lot of use. This kiln was not an old one either.
It is also not saying American kilns are bad, they are just built under different rules.
I have yet to come across a European kiln that does not fix to the main body somehow.

With regards to Mindy23 who was considering letting her husband check the kiln out and others doing home repairs.
There is every chance that the kiln has the earth wire connected to the back cover plate and then to nowhere else, all the others I have seen do.
It is surely common sense that if her husband removes the cover plate, he naturally in turn removes the earth as it is attached to it. That then means that the kiln is sitting on the bench with no earth at all. Presuming that the only reason that the cover plate has been taken off is due to a fault, and you yourself said that the fault was just a crimped wire fell off. Well if that crimped wire was a live wire and it taking the back plate off left it sitting on the frame, then when the kiln was turned on to test, obviously the kiln would be alive. If husband then touched the kiln he runs the risk of electrocution.
Again mate, this is not anti-Paragon or a slur, it is pure fact.
I would have offered that advice regardless of what make of kiln it was that was earthed in that way.


I am also not accusing people of being fools who are not capable of fixing there own kiln. It was very specific to Mind but I suppose people should be told if they are fixing an SC2 then they should make sure the frame is earthed. Again not a slur, a fact and I am not saying the SC2 is a bad kiln in that statement or that it is illegal etc. Probably best that you contact someone else with electrical knowledge here so you can get their points of view on this. Hopefully then you may understand that I am not persecuting you or Paragon, just being helpful to people.
My lads in the factory are extremely experienced but I would even insist that they earthed the frame before fault finding.

Rob, I am not blind and I have seen the meteoric rise of the SC2 and I have on more than one occasion considered selling them, as we cannot make a comparable kiln for the money so it was a case of if you can't beat em then join em. In the end we didn't. So there is no competition issue behind what I said, just safety.

Quote Lee ........We have had our fingers burnt once as these things are very fragile and sooooo easy to make a mess of.......

Quote Rob...... very misleading. he incorrectly fitted the element we supplied and it went bang. they're NOT fragile......

And on another post for no apparent reason or relation to this subject...

Quote Rob..... and I should point out that when lee bought a sc2 element from us to repair an sc2, he had to order a second one as the 'repair' went bang..........

I'm not quite sure why you have said this, it appears that you want to discredit me. To make out that I am not capable or a sound engineer. As I say, I'm not sure why as I have never personally attacked you.
What you have said is not how it happened and you know it.

I ordered the muffle which you sent over to us, I fitted the muffle and was waiting for the wires to be connected, a customer then came in and I had to move the kiln, I hadn't cut the element tails and they were sticking out beyond the back of the kiln. I totally forgot about this and picked up the back plate, put it to the back of the kiln to be able to move it, but as the tails were still long it pushed on the tails which pushed the elements out of the fibre and into the chamber. I didn't put a lot of pressure on, perhaps it was a faulty muffle.
You kindly got us another up here quick. We informed the customer and he paid only for the first, we paid for the second as you would expect.
So as you see a simple handling accident, no ill fitting and certainly no bang. but you knew that as I told you all about it on the phone at the time..
I suppose it's like being a glass artist and breaking a piece of glass, they've all done it.
In light of this loss of money and the risk it could happen again, is why we don't repair them anymore. I do however recommend you for the repairs.


Quote Rob...... re paragon. over the months, lee from kiln care has criticized paragon kilns:.......

No I haven't criticised Paragon, I have expressed concern that a kiln can be sold here where the elements are exposed and there is no door switch. Again this is probably due to my British kiln building background where we wouldn't dare make a kiln like this. It is evident that things are different in the States.
It is not a direct dig at Paragon, it just happened to be one of their kilns. I have not once said it was illegal. The other issue was advising Mind to be careful when the back plate is off and another was to advice people to be careful when loading beads on a kebab effort in case they stuffed the rod into the chamber wall. Anyone of those could have been any other kiln built the same and they were common sense observations, not attacks on Paragon.

With regards to ALL kilns, if I know that a certain operation, be it in general use, or in maintenance carries an electrical hazard I have taken it upon myself to inform people.
I do understand that being a glass artists in general carries all sorts of risks and many are quite high, but those risks are also very often obvious. Electrical problems tend to be much less thought of and to an extent, hidden, until it happens that is.

You mention that a toaster is more dangerous. Not quite true but I do see where you are coming from. As a life long kiln engineer and having to operate under the British rules for so long it does amaze me that toasters are on sale at all when kilns have always been covered so strictly, and if I reverse that, to someone who has not been a lifelong kiln engineer I can fully understand how that comparison can be made the other way and how it is easy to treat a kiln the same as a toaster.
Unfortunately though they are not treated the same, also unfortunately I don't know why toasters are allowed live elements. I suppose the main difference would be that the design purpose of a toaster doesn't involve sticking a knife in it whilstit is on (even though people do) where as the design purpose of a bead kiln does involve sticking metal rods in them.
It is also true that there are risks all around us. But again, I can only comment on kilns.

What you have to understand Rob is that I am operating on this forum as a kind of advisor to people who may well be very good glass people but maybe not super kiln engineers. If there is a dodgy earth or if there is an issue somewhere I have felt I have to let them know.

It IS not a direct dig at Paragon, it just so happens that Paragon out number the other imported American opposition by such a huge number that 90% of questions relate to a Paragon unfortunately. I am pointing out things that I am unhappy about as a kiln engineer and not as a company director or as a rival to Paragon.

Quote Rob cont..........(Lee)"If you are looking at the fusion 7 or 8 then please consider our Hobbyfuser or Hobbyfuser Midi, they are far superior kilns in everyway, designed for glass fusing (not a modified ceramics kiln) and built here in the U.K."
(Rob) this type of commercial bias has no place in a forum aimed at helping people........

I think this is the only time I have recommended one of ours over another and in my opinion they are superior, that's just my opinion.

I have however recommended the SC2 twice over other kilns for which you have made no reference.

I have also on many occasions said to people to contact you with regards to repairs etc. again with no reference.

You however have recommended you kilns on many many occasions. Here are just a few.


Quote Rob
.....although you can look at websites such as www.paragonkilns.co.uk.....

......hi there are several kilns to look at: the ultralite at www.ultralitekiln.co.uk  and the kitiki mini-kiln and the paragon firefly at www.electrickilns.co.uk ....

....they're described on the sites. after those, the sc2b (also on www.electrickilns.co.uk)........

........low cost kilns have less internal space, or a lower max temp, or less features, so you need to think carefully about what you want to do. also, for bead work as a prime use, the sc2b and bluebird are probably the most popular. mail me if you have any questions.....

......hi the paragon sc2b, and the bluebird are described on www.electrickilns.co.uk.......

........the sc2 is a multipurpose kiln, heating to 1095. the bluebird is an annealing kiln, and heats to 650 only - although it has two wide bead doors. the paragon xpress e14ab is much larger than the sc2b, so more expensive........


When I set this section up with Les it was done to help people who had kiln problems, it fast became apparent that there were other issues out there and I had to make a decision whether to let them ride and have it on my conscience if someone had an accident or to voice my concerns and so do my duty as I saw it.
It was never intended to be there to promote Kilncare and I have tried to avoid doing that other than the obvious avatar and signature banner, but everyone is allowed one of them. Likewise it was never here to attack Paragon or yourself.
I offered this as a service, to inform people and to help, if the questions are on a kiln I don't know about I will say so and often, as I have said, refer people to you.

Quote Rob...it's hard to advise people when, in his own post, he said he hadn't even seen a bluebird until recently.....

And that's why I offered no direct advice but I did speculate over the elements, to which I was correct it turns out.

I have replied honestly to many of the quotes you have made against me, I have not done it to start an argument, just to explain myself and correct a few issues for others to see as well.
As I have said I am not sure why you have got so personal, but hopefully, if you get to know me you will see that I'm not all that bad.
I do so hope that we can draw a line under this now.

I do also understand that when you see things being pointed out on your kilns that it can be annoying so how does this sound? I will not comment on anything regarding the safety of Paragon kilns in the future.
You are the importer of Paragon kilns, so I will operate a strict policy that if you are happy with the safety of them then fine.
I do not want to be known as a winge bag or I don't want to be accused of a witch hunt. Neither are true.

I have no reason for us to become enemies as we have to cohabit the same section of the arts.
We are gonna be around hopefully for many years so let's not let anything daft grow into anything dafter.

One day we may need each other, so how's about we shake and agree to disagree.

As you may know, we are up at the International Festival of Glass in August, I hope you will pop over and I'll get the coffees in.

Thanks,

Lee



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