When to start selling and how!

[Billie]

Hmmmm... I've no idea what's behind it.  Dora Schubert is based in Germany and she kiln anneals.  Teresa Laliberte is based in Germany and kiln anneals.  Recommendations coming from any UK lampworker (and me although I'm based in France  ) is that if you're selling to the public your beads need to be properly annealed in a kiln.  

I do know my in-laws had their classes in Germany, with Kristina Logan (who also kiln anneals), but as far as the German based glass and tool suppliers they used were concerned, flame annealing for about 8 minutes then putting your beads in vermiculite was all that was required. I just wondered if you were also being advised that through a German forum... It's interesting though 

[Redhotsal]

Well.....although I advocate kiln annealing for selling lampwork beads I do have these observations on annealing.

Many "old school" flameworkers/lampworkers do not anneal their work. I have various little glass animals and a great duck (complete with nightcap, hot water bottle and candle) made by a friend of mine who was a professional scientific glass blower. A quick look with polarisers reveals that this work is indeed not annealed. However, it has been around now for over a year and I've no doubt it will be around for much much longer. I have various other pieces which would be termed "vintage" - they too are not annealed and still in one piece.

My argument is this: Many of the scientific glass workers had a very thorough apprenticeship in glass. They understand how glass works. If you are ever priviliged to take a lesson with a sculptural lampworker you should learn a heck of a lot about "what makes glass tick" - and how to avoid putting unnecessary stresses into the glass.

Many beadmakers can make beautiful and accomplished beads and yet not know the first thing about how glass behaves. I've been making beads for ten years and yet I've only scratched the surface of "lampworking" proper. That's not meant as a criticism to anyone making beads - but making beads is a very very small subset of lampworking. As beadmakers we like to include all sorts of stuff in our beads that aren't there in other lampworking disciplines. Adding foil, different coe frit, silver, even mixing manufacturers glass puts a strain on your glass. So why not anneal? Why not do anything you can to make sure your beads are still around in ten, twenty or a hundred years time? Last thing I want is for someone to send me a cracked bead back in the post.

And anyway - kilns are not just for annealing - you can do loads of other things in them too - especially if you want to do sculptural work - sometimes you need to preheat or garage your work. There's no way you'd be able to make a paperweight or similar without a kiln. You'd be nuts not have a kiln.

And well said Zia - yes, we charge WAY TOO LITTLE for our beads in this country. If we undervalue them then so will our customers.

[Margram]

In addition, if you want to do bigger focals they are likely
to crack if not kiln annealed.

Marg x

[Zia]

working this whole selling thing through my head....
a rough account!only!


700€ cheaper kiln
500€ set up torch, oxycon etc
100€ glass
250€ course
(now this is not including taxes time and any other equipment required!)
minimal total 1550€

at a price of 4€ a bead
I would have to make 387 beads and sell them to even cut even!

Now I see why so many call this a paid hobby....thats without even considering all the glass wastage while practising.....
sighs


xxx
V

[Redhotsal]

Oh - don't be sad Zia, your first sale will be so exciting that you'll forget all about how much it all cost!! 

[Zia]

hehehe thats what I am trying to convice DH of right now......he isnt convinced yet especially after I bought loads of lauscha and effetre glass this week.....(although still on a weedkiller......grins). Am trying to convince him I NEED a kiln and a bobcat....or perhaps a minor...not sure....

wonders why hubbies never take "hobbies" seriously until you start making money with them........laughs

[Krysia@No98]

I have been making beads now since end of March 09.  I am not yet up to selling standard.

It was Mum's birthday this weekend and I wanted to give her something that I had made.  (she really likes home made bits)  So decided on a theme for jewelry, pink (and not round).  Got to grips with Rubino, sent them of to be annealed, Thank you Sabine, made it into necklace and charm bracelet (I will be putting pictures in the show and tell)

Having had problems getting insurance for my flat (only because I had to get the management company involved and they had to check the lease and of course flaff about, panic um and er.  Then there is the not aloud to run a business from the flat)  The whole experience has frightened me with the thought what if one of them breaks while some one it wearing it.  Having stood on some broken glass the other week (yes I know - it was only a small bit - yes its out and if you want a truly horrible story about broken glass and feet then Ill tell you about my sister walking home barefoot from the pub) and seeing how much it bled the last thing I would want to do is expose some one to that. 

So before I start selling.
    Kiln (my own as I would feel very cheek borrowing someone elses for profit)
    Insurance (not just to cover my own 'bottom' but to help if I cause some one serious hurt)

[Kaz]

I agree with you Krysia - kiln and insurance before you even consider selling.
I have just been doing my bead selling accounts today from since I started selling in about March last year. I started off on ebay just to get a feel of whether people liked my beads enough to buy them and they did - though it probably cost me a lot more to sell them than I charged. Over the last year I have improved my bead making techniques considerably (I cringe a bit at some of the early beads I sold actually!) and as my skills and therefore the quality of my beads has increased, I have felt justified in raising the prices. I have not made them extortionate though as I do have customers who have grown alongside me and I don't want to price them out. Though I recognise that they are still probably a little underpriced for the work and materials that go into them and that this can have a negative impact on the beadmakers who do this for a living. Pricing is difficult as you can seem to be valuing your work too low or too high and you have to establish yourself in the market before people are willing to pay proper money for your beads.
Kazx

[Krysia@No98]

(I cringe a bit at some of the early beads I sold actually!)
Kazx

If people want to buy them don't complain 

[sublimekate]

(I cringe a bit at some of the early beads I sold actually!)
Kazx

Me too 

I sold my first beads through my website after about 3 months, maybe bit less, I was happy with them enough to sell them at the time, but I did sell them for peanuts, tut tut. I'll probably look back in a few years at beads I'm making now and think the same I don't know.

I put them straight on the website with paypal 'pay now' buttons, did no advertising/networking NOTHING and I couldn't belive it when the first sale came through after about 2 weeks.

On the annealing thing, I wear a bracelet I made with a set of 9 of my very first set of beads, it's the ones in my avtar, they weren't annealed in a kiln, flame annealed and in vermiculite only. I tell you they've had some hammer, dropped on the flags outside, kitchen floor, kids have played with it the lot, not a crack in sight so far. I keep meaning to take it appart and anneal them but have never got round to it 

Kate xx

[Katiequiggle]

Zia, I've only ever used a 'weed killer' and I'm quite pleased with the results, theres not much I can't do that others do on a big torch in fact some people have been pretty amazed at some of the stuff I've turned out on my torch.

I am always willing to anneal for you if you send the return postage.  Many people batch annealed for me before I had my own kiln for which I'm eternally greatful.  I saved for over a year for my kiln, birthday money, Christmas money, money from sales etc.  You will get there in the end if you want to.

[Zia]

Oh i want to........
Its trying to convince hubby that it is necessary...as he finances it! I think KILN he thinks another window for our new house...lol!
I happily dont get anything for birthdays (except from DH and the kid!) or christmas either lol...and now that I have stopped working full time to be a "'SAHM" ......

smiles....

might just take you up on the offer to batch anneal.....smiles....have to make enough beads first....

I was looking at some kilns and have found a few that cost less than 500€ lalthough I do wonder if I shouldnt just wait and get a proper nice one first...

thanks once again for al your answers....and the cheer-upping!


xxxx

[GoodMonkey]

How to get a kiln out of your hubby:

Make some beads and let them thermal crack, then cry because your beautiful beads are broken......repeat as many times as necessary until your hubby feels so sorry for you he buys you a kiln. 

I promise it works; tried and tested 

(Although I didn't cry I was just genuinely very miserable LOL)

[Zia]

My beads are ok most of the time, its doing the things that take long...and sculptural ones that generally crack....Got really upset the other night when I made for my taste a rather beautiful marble for lil one and it cracked...on one side and is funnily enough still stuck on the mandrel, cant get it off somehow! Its when I started thinking about the kiln...sadly though I will probably have to wait until father christmas sends his lil elves to buy me one...for doubt whether I will get one sooner..so many other things to pay for and buy first.

and then there are all those lovely shards and murrinis and frits on here just tempting me ..... ...

[Rosenquartz]

Zia,

You've received loads of good advice about the benefits of annealing and a few offers for batch annealing - I took a few FHF members up on their offer of kiln time when I first started making beads I really wanted to keep. It's worth it I think.

Don't discount a used kiln to save some money - they is not a lot to wear out in a kiln and no moving parts. Since being a member of this forum since January this year I've seen a few come up for sale - probably no more than one a month, though. I bought a third-hand Paragon Caldera with Bead Collar for about half the price of buying new. I could have paid just a little more than I did to get a new kiln but that would have been the cheaper construction rather than fire-brick and much less adaptable to other kiln-based hobbies. I would think that if you keep saving and keep your eyes open you might find one that it is suitable in form and price soon enough.

Good luck
Neil