I has another kiln question

[jeannette]

So still in dilemmas, but in my reasearch am trying to understand the difference between tubes and elements in kiln technology.
As far as I can tell, the results are the same/similar, but the cost is reduced for tubes (?) for the firings.
I'm going to ask the manufacturers/resellers, but I wondered if anyone has done the research before?
Thanks
Jeannette

[Lee - Kilncare]

Well look no further

By elements in a kiln I presume you mean elements embedded in a groove within the brickwork.

Yes, you are correct, elements in tubes, more specifically quartz tubes, are much more economical than those embedded in brickwork.
It is nothing clever, it is basic physics. The brickwork is made from a material that is to insulate the kiln by creating a barrier to stop heat escaping. If you put the elements in a tight groove inside this brickwork then you are 70% surrounding the element in a material that doesn't want to let the heat of the element out and into the chamber.
At the same time the element is heating the brickwork from within which pushes the brickwork faster towards its saturation point. On a thin 3" thick lid this can cause quite some heat loss through the brickwork.

The elements inside quartz still have the issue of being encased, but this time they are encased in quartz which will lets the heat out much much faster than brick meaning more of the elements heat is released into the kiln and not absorbed away.

Both elements tend to run hot.

There are other advantages to tubes over lid grooves such as the reduced risk of dust or particle droppage, ability to change an element without the need to replace the entire lid, increased element life.

However the tube system is considerably more expensive to produce, hence the lack of options at the smaller end of the market.

Hope that answers your questions.

Lee

[Lee - Kilncare]

and I've just read your previous post where you mention the Hobbyfuser or the Paragon 16. Now I see the relevance.

O.K. bottom line. The Hobbyfuser is a suprior product but more expensive.

The Paragon 16 has some very good reviews and is cheaper to purchase.

This isn't me bigging up our product, it IS superior to the Paragon. Fact. However, for hobby purposes the Paragon is also a good kiln, lots of people have them and I rarely hear of any major issues with them. I don't think Warm Glass would be happy selling them if they were gettting problems with them.

I suppose it's like buying a drill for the home, not work, the Makita is one of the best, but the Black and Decker will do just fine. Same sort of thing.

[jeannette]

Thanks, Lee. I appreciate your response.

In fact, warm glass are advising me to go with the skutt over the paragon as a first kiln, but I am still element versus tube debate I think there (or brick/quartz debate). My initial outlay is within budget for the hobby fuser if the ROI is there versus the firings (and it makes "green" hubby happy), so I am leaning towards the hobby fuser still. I am starting to get a bit worried about locating the kiln and also making such an investment without being able to see one in person. So question: how much space do I need for the hobby fuser? And is there anywhere using the hobby fuser near to me (say a studio) you know of that would permit me to have a wee look? I'm in Northants/Lincs border.

Whilst this is most definitely a hobby (I am the proud owner of only several pendants, some earrings, cufflinks and christmas decorations), my local pub wants me to slump a bunch of bottles to use as cheese serving plates - don't worry, no profit here for the pros just free beer and I supect it will take a while to actually be sucessful at that:) and I am interested in trying to fuse some glass to do a window thingie, that I really just want to do myself. You could say I have a bee in my bonnet about it! So I think size matters for those things alone and the skutt will have me unable to complete those projects easily.

A couple of people mentioned the skutt now and I am begining to think maybe I am being greedy! But I can't see the point of buying twice for a hobby. I've been lucky enough to release some funds and so I am am just thinking, get to a place where I want to be for the most part and for some time to come, rather than buy twice. As well, I believe your warranty is longer on the kiln than wam glass offer, so on balance things start to even out in that respect as well
Thanks
Jeannette

[Lee - Kilncare]

Without a doubt the Hobbyfuser will be cheaper to run than the Paragon and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't with the smaller Skutt as well. Would be interesting to find out I guess.

Do you want to come a run to Stoke? You may only be 90 mins or so away depending on where you are. You can have a good look at one here. I can always do you a coffee.

Or have we got any members on FH that can offer you a peep.

I will check our records but I will have to give them a courtesy call first to make sure it is O.K. to release their details, I'm sure you understand.

With regards to the guarantee. Ours is 3 years, ALL parts included!! And that means the elements to which is most unusual in the kiln world.
Basically if anything what so ever fails on the kiln in the first 3 years then we fix it with new parts. We do not duck and hide here, it is one thing being a good company when you are selling a kiln but the real test is how that same company reacts when things break down, that's where reputations are built or destroyed. It does help that we build the kiln here in Stoke so we always, always have all spares etc in stock, as well as the ultimate knowledge of the construction blah blah/
Also it does help if we haven't had a single faulty element in a Hobbyfuser in it's 8 years of life The odd controller has failed but they are made for us in Stafford so hardly a big crisis there either.

If you are seriously thinking of it then we are offering a free stand with every Hobbyfuser if the order is placed before Xmas. It save you £144.oo but it won't be on come January.

[jeannette]

If you are seriously thinking of it then we are offering a free stand with every Hobbyfuser if the order is placed before Xmas. It save you £144.oo but it won't be on come January.

Yup, I know..hence why I'm bugging the world with questions.

Yes, of course, fully understand about the contact of folks...just a thought

I may be able to come to Stoke - I am off all next week, but have the "a washing machine engineer will be with you on the 19th" event, that will inevitably be an all day-er that I have to endure.

[jeannette]

Oh and can I bring my dog? She is very small and well behaved....

[Lee - Kilncare]

Ah yes, do bring yer pooch.

We have a resident Cocker Spaniel who belongs to our bricky so dogs are not an issue. George, the Cocker is big and hard until it comes to little dogs then he shakes and shivers lol.

Let me know a day you fancy a run up and I'll make sure things are fine.

[Moreton]

Jeannete, from my own experience of Lee & KilnCare you will never do better than buying from them.

Amazing service before I bought anything from them and genuine help given freely and without a sales pitch.

A second hand kiln bought on Ebay was treated as if I had been the original purchaser, can't beat that for after service can you.

Pete

[jeannette]

No Pete, you can't. I have seen many people praise Lee on the board as well, even though I am so new here - his reputation proceeds him What kiln did you buy?

@Lee - ah, well Bluebelle is a bit of a bossy boots, so she will coerce any dog into submission...or be eaten. I am pretty sure the pub's bull mastiff will be killed by her one day, Bluebelle will surely choke her on the way down!
It will probably be Wednesday or later in the week. Depends if I am left to my own devices or I can hitch a lift to a nearby airfield.

[Zeldazog]

Jeanette, just so you know, my studio is about five miles from J25 of the M1, Ilkeston, and I have Hobbyfuser if you want to come and look (although cant beat going to the factory I guess!)

Not sure which Skutt you were thinking of, but my Hot Start Pro took 5 KWh/Units per full fuse firing, I think the Hobbyfuser takes around 8.5 Kwh/Units (does that sound about right Lee?) - but of course, I *can* get much more in the Hobbyfuser....

[jeannette]

Warm glass recommended the hotstart pro or the Firebox 14, pros and cons to both I guess. Having looked at the second hand kiln market - I think actually, I wouldn't have too much trouble doing an upgrade and maybe shouldn't be so greedy and accept I can only do smaller things for the start. The thing about these 2 kilns is they fit in a space I have indoors - this is the worry with the 2 bigger kilns I am also considering.

Thanks a bunch for the offer - I will PM you!! That's up the road from family!

[Lee - Kilncare]

By the way Dawn, I wanna pop over some time in the Xmas break to run a check on you Hobbyfuser temperatures. Would that be O.K?

[Zeldazog]

By the way Dawn, I wanna pop over some time in the Xmas break to run a check on you Hobbyfuser temperatures. Would that be O.K?

That would be fine Lee, let me know when and I can pop into the studio if I am not there already.  Wrap up warm though!!

[Lee - Kilncare]

OK pal ill be in touch