Kilns for pottery and glass fusing

[Karramandi]

Hello,

I hope everyone is enjoying their Friday evening

I'm looking for a bit of advice in buying a kiln and hope someone will be able to please help.

I am thinking about purchasing a kiln for fusing glass but also want to be able to fire pottery.

I've seen a Paragon Janus series kiln which is said to be suitable for both.  I was wondering if anyone had any experience of this kiln or could recommend another that could be used for both.

Many thanks in advance for any help and advice.

Yvonne
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[Zeldazog]

I've heard of it, but don't know anything about it?

The right kiln is a topic that comes up often on this forum (fairly obviously really  being that most of us melt glass in one way or another!)

One of the main conclusions that we come to quite often is that no single kiln covers every requirement perfectly.  Of course, a lot of people on the forum are looking for one that is suitable for bead annealing as well, which brings its own set of "Ideal" needs.

There are probably two main differences between a "glass" kiln and a "ceramic" kiln. 

- for ceramics, main consideration is temperature it can go to, and of course what you need as top temp depends on the clay body you're working with.  Ceramics kilns require far less complex controllers.  Being able to control rate/ramp of heat is abou.t all you need to be able to do

- a glass kiln, (in my humble opinion) ideally is top firing for even distribution of heat, although you can easily fire glass in others.  They don't need to go so hot, but control is far more important in firing glass, and most "glass" kilns have digital controllers with lots of ramp and hold segments, linked to a thermocouple.

In terms of kilns that can do both, there are LOTS. At college, we regularly and successfully fired in a ceramics kiln, with quite a basic controller.  And I can low biscuit fire in my glass kiln .   Paragon Caldera is one, I think I saw a "Rohde" kiln that can do both, which I think has both top and side elements which are independently controlled, and I am quite sure that Lee at Kilncare would have something suitable.  If you're not sure from the website, give him a call, he's very helpful and knowledgeable. 

It's difficult for anybody to make recommendations with the little information you've given us Yvonne - How big is the work you want to do?  Can the kiln be hardwired in, or does it have to run off a 13amp plug?  How much space do you have for your kiln?  What's your budget?  Are you an experienced glass fuser and/or ceramicist?

HTH

[llewennog]

I use a large ceramics kiln, for Annealing, fusing, slumping, enaliming and actually ceramics, I got lucky and got offered a great old british kiln that I drilled a hole in for my thermocouple and run a stafford instruments digital controller to run everything, the controller cost me 3times as much as the kiln but still a lot less than the 400-800 price that I was beign quoted for a newer kiln!

[Lee - Kilncare]

Yes, you can fire both glass and ceramics in a large number of kilns, in fact pretty much anything that will cover the temperature zones.

As has been stated, the controller needs to be more complex to handle glass.

The most common feedback we receive on this issue is that glass fused in a ceramics kiln can have "hot" edges if the glass is loaded too close to the sides.
You see, ceramic kilns require really, to be heated from the sides where as glass kilns, certainly for fusing and slumping, are much better if they are heated from the top only. Size depending of course.

One thing you really should be aware of is that kilns made for glass will tend to use type K or N control. The optimum operating temperatures for K and N is say, 600 - 900c ish (glass zone).
Kilns for ceramics will use type R or S which is optimum at say 900 - 1300c ish.
This is really a purest view, but you may find, depending on how critical your glass is, that the cycle needs to be tweaked a few degrees to compensate for using type R or S at lower temperatures.
However, as has been said, loads of places fire glass in ceramics kilns not giving a hoot about the control type.


Well I hope I haven't confused matters too much.

Lee

[Dennis Brady]

Pretty much all fused glass started with pottery kilns.  As kilnformers learned of the need for firing schedules more complicated then just getting up to temperature and turning off (as is the way pottery is fired), and got tired with having to babysit their kilns to create those schedules, entrepreneurs created digital controllers.  A controller makes it much easier but you can still produce the same results with a pottery kiln.

As was mentioned in another post, the main problem (other then the nuisance of having to sit with your kiln) is the uneven heat distribution caused by side elements heating up the outer rim faster then the middle.  To avoid the thermal shock cracks this will cause, if you fire with a pottery kiln you must ramp up and down slower then with a top element kiln. 

Most all kiln makers produce a "kit" that will convert any kiln to using a digital controller.   We've sold over 100 of these to glass artisans that started with a used pottery kiln.  Provided them for kilns as big as 300 amps.  It's an incredibly simple device (albeit relatively expensive - about $600.)  Plug it into the wall outlet.  Plug the kiln into the "kit".  Turn the kiln onto high.  The kiln is now slaved to the commands of the controller.  Easy peasy.

There are kilns being made that are suitable for both pottery and glass - but they are pretty expensive.  You used to be able to get pottery kilns really cheap but as more glass fusers are starting to experiment with making their own ceramic molds for slumping and open faced kiln casting, used pottery kilns now tend to get sold quickly.

Casting may be the fastest growing interest in the glass arts.  With a ceramic crucible, you can melt glass in a pottery kiln to pour into a mold or to do a gather for glass blowing. 

[Karramandi]

Many thanks to all the replies, they have been extremely helpful.

The reason I was asking was because I have been fusing glass in a tiny UHLIG kiln at the studio I have access to.  I'm wanting to start making panels and plates etc and looking to buy something bigger.

I'm also interested in pottery and about to start a class.  If I really enjoy it, then I didn't want to go spending a lot of money on a kiln that will only do glass if I could have got one that did both.

I'd rather have something that can plug into a socket however if one needs to be hardwired into the mains then it is possible. 

I've since discovered that I could buy two kilns suitable for my needs for less than a Janus which does both.  I wasn't going to buy one until next year anyway so I'll sleep on it further... I may hate pottery

Thanks ever so much once again

Yvonne
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[Zeldazog]

One thing you will find Yvonne is that (glass anyway, can't comment for ceramic) kilns hold their price well - for example an SC2, when they do come up for sale, often go for a good price (I watched one on Ebay go higher than a brand new one delivered!)

So if you did buy one and find out later that it wasn't suitable for your needs, you would probably sell it quite easily.


Doubt you'll hate pottery though, unless you really can't abide getting your hands dirty.  I started with glass, but I do get seduced by clay....

[Flyingcheesetoastie]

I have two kilns in the studio, one glass built by Mr Lee and company! and the other is a small cromartie top loader which is fired with a kiln sitter!  The small kiln has done everything glassy despite having side elements and no type of control really, however I've just got a lovely pyrometer for it which is the first stage to buying a digital controller for it and the only reason I'm doing this is to be able to cast in it with a controlled ramp up.

So in short, if you have patience then you can use most things for glass!

[Veebee]

Hi!
I'm interested in this too... would I be able to fire small ( say, lentil sized  ) pieces of ceramic in my SC2? If so, a whole new world opens for me!
(sorry for the minor hijack!)

[Zeldazog]

The lowest firing clay (that I know of) is earthenware, as in terracotta, which fires to 1000 degrees C.  You can get a quite nice white earthenware, and one of my tutors uses black earthenware, but I think she high fires it to bring out the deepest colours.

There are probably other speciality ones that might fire a bit lower, (I am not sure if clay bodies specifically designed for Raku work might fire a bit lower but I could be wrong about that I would have to check).

I biscuit fired some vases last year in my glass kiln, took them to about 875, they were still absorbent and not full strength (as biscuitware mostly is same), but at least I was able to handle them without breaking them!

That said, for something like beads, at a lower temperature, so long as they were sealed with varnish or wax they might be okay, cos you're not drinking out of them!

[Veebee]

The lowest firing clay (that I know of) is earthenware, as in terracotta, which fires to 1000 degrees C.  You can get a quite nice white earthenware, and one of my tutors uses black earthenware, but I think she high fires it to bring out the deepest colours.

There are probably other speciality ones that might fire a bit lower, (I am not sure if clay bodies specifically designed for Raku work might fire a bit lower but I could be wrong about that I would have to check).

I biscuit fired some vases last year in my glass kiln, took them to about 875, they were still absorbent and not full strength (as biscuitware mostly is same), but at least I was able to handle them without breaking them!

That said, for something like beads, at a lower temperature, so long as they were sealed with varnish or wax they might be okay, cos you're not drinking out of them!

You are so knowledgeable, thanks!
I'm gonna start a new thread so as not to over hijack this one 
Thanks again!

[Karramandi]

Thanks to everyone for all the detailed replies.  I decided against pottery for the moment unfortunately.  As much as I would love to have a go, I decided to stick with glass and jewellery making.

One of the things I wanted to make sure of was that I had a front loader so that I could still do enamelling if I wanted to.  I looked at the price of kilns and to get the size I wanted as a front loader would be a heck of a lot more expensive than buying a top loader of the size I need for glass plates and plaques etc and buying a second small front loader kiln for doing the enamelling.  Is that crazy?

Thanks again to everyone.
Yvonne
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[Zeldazog]

Is that crazy?

Probably not!  I've said often that there is probably so ONE kiln that fits all purposes.  Of course you can get them that cover everything, and can do all things adequately, or even quite well.

But, to get the one that is IDEAL for all purposes, well I think that would come at a premium, and more than one kiln is probably a better option if you have the space.

I bought it Hot Start Pro - its perfect for my glass fusing, it's a top loader (so I Can cover it up and use it as an extra table!), its cheap to run even if I don't fill it up, and I can even fire to low bisque If I need to - but.... enamelling is a no-no, and if want to start making beads, I can only batch anneal.... however, if I'd have bought an SC2, it would have done these, but not the big panels I like doing....

So my ideal solution is a kiln room, with (at least!) a mahoosive flat bed for really big stuff, a small front loader for enamelling, garaging beads, silver clay, test fusing, of course something to fire ceramics in (which ideally would be gas so I can do reduction firings!), and well, you know, I would have to keep my trusty Hot Start....

I need a new house.... 

[bluefairy]

Is that crazy?

So my ideal solution is a kiln room, with (at least!) a mahoosive flat bed for really big stuff, a small front loader for enamelling, garaging beads, silver clay, test fusing, of course something to fire ceramics in (which ideally would be gas so I can do reduction firings!), and well, you know, I would have to keep my trusty Hot Start....

I need a new house.... 

....with a spare room for your lovely friend Helen who's going to come and live with you and help stroke all of the lovely kilns 

[Karramandi]

Make room for me too

I went ahead and bought an SC2.  It arrivd last week and I've still  not been able to take it out the box as hubby is clearning out the back room so I can use it as my work room.  I can't wait.  I'm itching to get it going and play