DOES ANYONE USE NATURAL GAS TO TORCH?

[Mary]

The swimming pool smell isn't the propane smell, I get it if I forget to turn my fan on, and I'm doing a lot of reducing. Your extractor isn't strong enough, or you need to add baffles or something, you shouldn't be smelling it. Changing your gas will only hide the problem, you'll still be breathing more fumes than you should.

Sorry, I'm sounding like a prophet of doom or something! Just being geeky, not meaning to lecture on safety!

[fionaess]

Thanks Sherry thats very interesting...

[Diane]

Thanks for your reply Sherry and glad to hear from someone who uses natural gas with success. And Mary please don't think you are a 'prophet of doom'. It's good to be reminded of anything that's safety related and I do occasionally get carried away and forget about the extractor.
Diane x

[Hamilton Taylor]

Hi all,

For what it's worth, I run a minor on natural gas, and two oxycons. There's plenty of pressure, plenty of heat, and no need to worry about running out of anything! The supply is apparently at domestic pressure, so it's nothing special....

Sean

[Diane]

Thanks Sean - we are looking into it - might take a while but with gas reputed to being increased by 40% are beginning to wonder about the cost - have you done a costing on your gas usage?
Diane x

[Soozintheshed]

Interesting.... I was talking to Carole McAllister at the Newcastle Rock & Gem shop, and she has her torch plumbed into the regular house gas supply.

Didn't even know you could do that !

[Hamilton Taylor]

Diane,

Costing's a bit difficult because:

we've only been in premesis a year
our bill is combine gas & electric
we also have gas space heaters on the same supply
we rarely get our stuff together to submit a reading in time for the bill....

but, generally, we pay about £30/month, variable because it depends on what kind of work we're doing at any one time.
Also, our studio is upstairs, and we have bottle storage issues. When we see what the price rises do, we'll have a look at the whole thing, including a possible move....

I guess that doesn't help much, but my 0.02.

Cheers,

Sean

[Sally Nowill King]

So have you resolved the situation?! I'm sorry to reopen a thread but have some related questions... I understand the gas is governed by domestic meters to be 21 mbar ie a fartish 0.3psi? Is your industrial supply able to run at the 30-50mbar (which is only just under 1psi max) pressure available behind the meter? Do you have to have a pressurised holding tank to add force sufficient to use through the torch? Thanks for any input, for the initial thread and hoping you got sorted

[Diane]

Hi Sally - I decided to abandon the idea of natural gas as I went to a larger torch (Lynx) and I was doubtful about natural gas coping with just a domestic supply.  I did upgrade my extraction and find that I don't have the problem of fumes now.
Diane x

[stuwaudby]

Just to straighten a few things out:

Natural gas is about 92% Methane, 5% Ethane and a few other gases. Bottled Propane is mostly Propane but will contain some Ethane and Butane. All these gasses are very similar and produce water, carbon dioxide and possibly carbon monoxide. None of these products smell. None of the aforementioned gasses have an inherent smell. The smell is a mixture of noxious chemicals but mainly a substance called Ethyle Mercaptan. It is toxic but added in such small quantities that it is harmless, when burnt it will add a very small amount of sulphur dioxide to the flame gasses (that slight smell you sometimes get from your heating flue). Switching to mains gas will make no difference to the smell from torching because it is primarily generated by oxidising your mandrels.

The smell is caused by your flame reacting with the mandrel, bead release and anything else placed in the flame. If I have a good two hour boro session in the conservatory then the house stinks of hot metal and sometimes I get a red fringe to my kitchen hob flame! This indicates that something is in the air. (I really need more extraction.) Using a more neutral flame will reduce the oxidisation of your mandrals and cause less smell.

Connecting your torch upto the gas mains opens up a whole load of legal questions. For a domestic premises it falls mainly under The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 (which also applies to bottles gas).  For a business premises more general health and safety law also applies. The regulations are written for domestic appliances and are unclear when applied to the situation where a domestic user is torching glass. A CORGI trained and registered installer is unlikely to be trained to install a non-standard gas appliances. CORGI interpret the regulations and translate them into a set of guidelines and standards that a registered engineer will comply with. If you bear in mind that the installer is legally responsible for the safety of any work he undertakes then he is may to refuse to connect your torch up. Generally a gas appliance must be safe, have sufficient ventilation and a suitable flue. It is arguable that a torch represents a similar situation to a gas hob however there is one key difference:

The main problem with connecting a torch to the gas main is that oxygen is also been supplied to the torch at a higher pressure than the gas (not an issue with a bottle). This means that there is a (remote) possibility that oxygen could be pushed back into the gas mains and result in a very dangerous situation.

I have not got time to work out the maths right now however for the same heat output Natural gas is less than half the cost of bulk propane. The price difference will be even higher for bottled propane.

Methane has a higher proportion of hydrogen to carbon atoms than Propane. This means it should generate less CO2 and CO for the same heat output.

[Hamilton Taylor]

So have you resolved the situation?!

Yep. I got a bigger torch, and a whole bunch of smaller ones, and some premix ones too. So I went over to propane. No mess, no fuss, and what I spend on propane I save by running oxycons instead of bottled oxy - lots of them....at least I used to save money. With LX prices as they are, it's nearly time to look at bottled oxy again...

Sean

[Jacky67]

i work with natural gas and love it, my instalation at home gives me a choice i can switch to propane if I wan to, but havent used that for almost a year. 
i have 4 oxicons hooked up on a system so i can lead the oxigen to one torch but also to 4 diferent torches.
all the oxigen and gas connections from torchhose to the gaspipes are with quickconnect that allow gas only to go one way not back into the gas pipes. this for extra safety.
I have a minor, mini cc and bobcat working great on natural gas. I work also on a carlisle CC that doesn't work optimal with this settup but I'm certain this is not due to the natural gas but because my 4 oxicons don't give enough oxigen presure for this torch still I can do a lot of work on this torch.

Jacky