Kiln wash or kiln paper

[Lucas]

Hi all,
I have a kiln coming on Monday from warm glass( ), and have done fusing on an evening class but tend to use kiln paper.  Now I'll be doing more I thought I might need to look at kiln wash for financial reasons, but not sure how it works...
Are you supposed to use kiln wash on shelves even if you use paper too, or is it one or the other?  I hope to do some slumping and using moulds later, when I get the hang of things (and can afford the moulds! ), and I know I'll need wash for that, but for the time being will be concentrating on tiles/coasters/anything else I can think of!
Any recommendation of specific brands or suppliers for kiln wash, or do you think I should just stick with paper?  And what about the clean up (of paper or wash) - I assume there is some(or should be some!) but to be honest we skimp at the evening class, no dust masks or anything, just wash the pieces off in the sink!
Any info/advice/recommendations welcome!
L

[Margram]

Quite a lot of info on this thread: http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22629.0
Good luck!

[Blue Box Studio]

Warm Glass sold me kiln paper and siad it was easier to use than kiln wash.  I got it because a friend uses my kiln for fusing small dichro pieces and she has always used kiln paper in her classes.  Don't think it was horrendously expensive and I can get 4 pieces for my SC2 out of a big sheet (or was it 6?) but I guess if you were doing a lot kiln wash would be cheaper.

[Zeldazog]

Hi Lucas

As you'll probably gather from the other thread, kiln wash or paper is a matter of personal preference.  Yes, paper is much much easier, but as I wrote in the other thread, works out something like 10 times more expensive.  Personally I can't justify that cost - if I was fusing occasionally, then I would probably not worry.

If you use thin fire, or ceramic fibre paper, you won't need to wash the shelf. But if you use thin fire, you will need to hoover out the kiln each time and use a new sheet.  I have tried CF paper, which with care, and not moved, will last more than one firing, but I personally didn't like the texture it left.

I don't know what wash you use at your evening class, but it should not really be washed down the sink. 

I usually use Bullseye shelf primer, and it won't wash off anyway!  I used to remove it with a green scourer, wearing a dust mask, but recently found out that a metal paint scraper does a much better and quick job of getting it off, creating far less dust - but it goes into the waste bin, not down the sink.  Ideally, you should also be wearing a dust mask when you mix it up too.  A haik brush is very useful for applying the kiln wash.

Warm Glass have started selling a new shelf primer which I think *does* wash off, so I might try that, although I'd still want to research a bit more before sticking that product down the drain....

[awrylemming]

I bought some kiln paper which I was going to use for fusing, but have come to the conclusion that my disability precludes this - so the paper is now defunct, and I have a huge tub of kiln wash anyway.  It's yours if you want it, and already in a tube, so just needs an addy and postage.  I'll pick up the postage tho, it won't be much.

[♥♥Tan♥♥]

I will if he doesn't Sue, I'm just about to run out!

[awrylemming]

Whoever pm's me first is more than welcome to it.

[Lucas]

Have PM'd you, but don't know if I won the race!
And to clear up any confusion, I'm not a man, just have a name which sounds like I should be!!
Lucas

[Lucas]

Thought I should clarify - we use thinfire paper at the class, so it's the dust left on the fused pieces which gets washed down the sink, not sure if I've ever seen a vacuum anywhere near the kiln though...
Might start off with paper til I get a bit more experienced, think there's going to be a steep enough learning curve as it is! 
Thanks for the info folks!
Lucas

[Zeldazog]

Honestly Lucas, kiln wash is easy peasy to use.  Mix with water, brush on several coats (in different directions). 

I then usually fire the shelf up to 200 degrees, take it out, give a rub over with a piece of kitchen towel (or my hand), perfectly smooth shelf that will usually last more than one firing.

Advice from Bullseye regarding thin fire: 
http://www.warm-glass.co.uk/Downloads/Public/Products/Safety%20Files/Bullseye%20Thinfire.pdf

[julieHB]

I don't do much fusing these days, but I might just have to treat myself to a pot of kiln wash 

[Lucas]

So how do you know when you need to re-coat it, if sometimes it lasts more than one firing?  Would it be blatantly obvious, or might I not realise and wreck everything?  Can you just kind of 'top up' the kiln wash on the shelf, or do you have to scrape it all off (with a paint scraper into the bin - I was following!) and start again every time?
Thanks for the info and help, I don't want to ruin everything before I manage to get anywhere!
L

[Zeldazog]

Sometimes, the shelf looks the same - well it will be creamy colour, when it was probably a pinkish shade when it first went in.

Sometimes there will be darker shaded areas where your glass was - if there are no loose flakes, I don't worry.  Sometimes there will be just lines where the edges of pieces have come away.  Sometimes, depending on placement of these, and the size of the next batch for firing (And what temperature I am going to) I will just work around them.

And other times, whole areas of kiln wash will come away.  Basically, if it's coming off, its coming off - it WILL be obvious, as the wash is different colour to the shelf - it doesn't just get thinner and thinner.  It's either there, or it's not, so don't worry, you will be able to tell I am sure.

I *have* re-coated over a shelf where a bit has come away - and still do occasionally - but only on small pieces - and I did this before I discovered the paint scraper method.  However, when I tried to fuse a plate on a shelf I had re-coated over a flaky bit, I had problems - the shelf is then uneven, and trapping air underneath - so honestly, it's not really worth it - this doesn't tend to be an issue with small pendant sizes, as they rarely cover the whole area that might have flaked.  Hope this is making sense!

I can only say this about Bullseye Primer, as I haven't used any other sort myself.  The batt wash at college was the same though, but I can't say for sure what brand it was.

[julieHB]

Well, I have ordered a small bottle of Primo, and am excited to try it out - the fact that it supposedly is easy to clean off both glass, kiln shelf and moulds is a huge selling point  Will report how I get on!

[Zeldazog]

I think I am going to try and small pot next time I place an order, then whichever I prefer I will buy a big tub, as I am now getting through a lot more!

But do let us know Julie, it did appeal to me too!