Where is the best place to keep gas?

[helenfc]

There is very little benifit from venting down your pipes after a session.

could you elaborate on this point a bit stuwadby? do you mean there is little benefit to 'bleeding' the propane pipe after a session? i had thought that was rather important, especially if you are temporarily putting a hose out the window because for some reason you cant drill a hole in the wall. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean by 'venting down pipes'?
Thanks

[jammie]

Mines is inside. I read that if there is a fire then fireman do not enter the house if there is propane stored there. Sure this was somewhere on here.

[Fruddy]

Mines is inside. I read that if there is a fire then fireman do not enter the house if there is propane stored there. Sure this was somewhere on here.

It was Jean - Stu Wadby posted it, because I read it before I bought my kit.

The fire service WILL enter your house, apparently, if there is propane in it in the event of a fire, but only to save life.  Not sure how accurate this is, because there appeared to be quite a few differing opinions.

I would be more concerned about my insurance policy - as long as I knew that I was covered and that they wouldn't try and wriggle out of indemnifying me in the event of a claim I wouldn't be too worried.

Put it another way - if the only way that I could torch would be to keep propane inside then I would.

[stuwaudby]

Oooh, now I'm wound up!

Helenfc:

In response to the venting down questions. What I was referring to is opening the torch valve to de-pressurise the pipes. The amount of gas within a pipe does not pose much hazard so long as the gas bottle is turned off. If you are using quick releases then the socket should contain a valve which closes when the plug is removed. If you simply pop the plug from the socket then only the section of pipe between the plug and torch will depressurise through the plug (hopefully outside). If you vent down from the torch then the whole pipe back to the tank is vented (inside). Whenever your kit is vented then air could enter the pipes and create a combustable mixture. If you do not take care to purge it before next use then the mixture in the pipe could explode when you light the torch. If your kit is constantly left connected then the best thing to do is just turn off the bottle and keep it pressurised. (If is is still pressurised next day then there is the bonus of knowing there are no leaks.)

Pat from Canvey: The link you have posted is to a Chinese manufacturers website, even if that particular fire is sold in the UK it will not be sold for use with propane. The Chinese are not renowned for personal safety. Calor Butane (blue) may be used and stored indoors in the UK with a bottle size upto 15kg. Calor say that Propane may be used temporarily indoors but may not be stored in doors. Flogas do not allow propane to be used indoors at all. Butane has a much higher boiling point than propane and lower pressure, this means that it is somewhat safer for use indoors. For further details check the Calorgas or Flogas websites. When in use a portable gas heater poses a larger fire risk than any other domestic appliance.

http://www.flogas.co.uk/pdf/propane-safety.pdf
http://www.flogas.co.uk/pdf/butane-safety.pdf

You are correct that a bottle does not pose any additional fire risk. It does however contaiin a very large amount of fuel and hugely increase the consequences if a fire breaks out. A normal house fire is dangerous enough, if you have your doors closed then there should be time to escape. If a propane bottle is in the fire then your doors (or floors) wont keep the flames back.

Keeping your propane bottle indoors in a domestic property is not specifically illegal. You are however breaching the hire agreement for your gas bottle by breaching the safety instructions of the gas supplier. However safe and justified you feel with the propane bottle in your house do you have the right to impose the risk on the rest of your family and neighbours? I strongly urge you stick to a single 2.5 kg bottle. Check your home insurance, deliberatly breaching safety instructions is deliberate negligence.

Scarlett: Propane and Butane will only sink to the floor immediatley due to the low temperature (caused by g evaporation of the liquid in the bottle). Butane will stay lower for longer. It will quickly diffuse into any available space as it warms. Do not assume that a low vent provides any protection. Gas may not be stored in cellars because cellars have bad ventilation. Drains, pipes and power lines can create passages to other properties which leaking gas can pass through. Transco regularly blow up houses due to gas leaking under a street  and getting into someones cellar.

Billie: A limited volume of butane can be stored indoors. The reason that butane can be kept inside is because there is a requirement for portable heaters and butane poses less risk than propane. The consequences of a butane fire are lower than propane but are still present. A whole different set of regulations apply to business premises which will be why Ray had problems.

Fruddy: Regardless of your insurance policy you need to be alive to make a claim. It is likely that domestic insurance will not mention gas bottles but you should check. If you are using a gas bottle in a manner which the supplier does not allow then you are legally negligent, in just the same way that you are not insured for theft if you leave a window open. Check that your policy does not exclude negligence.


I used to be a Chemical Proccess Engineer at the Rough gas storage facility in East Yorkshire, the largest gas store in the UK. I currently manage the importation of Liquified Natural Gas into the Grain LNG facility and am responsible for gas composition analysis and blending. I have worked in the gas industry for 20 years (and been making glass beads for 2 years).

[Billie]

Wow, Stuwaudy, I think you've hammered your points home there.  Thanks for the advice  

Interestingly, I remember a supplier advising (way back when) to vent the hoses after each session to avoid rubber erosion  

[helenfc]

thanks for clearing that up stu, thats a lot of info! bet you needed a cup of tea after that!

[stuwaudby]

Rubber erosion

There is possibly a case for venting down the oxygen pipe to extend it's lifetime. I dount it would influence anyones decision to change their pipes though. The pipes commonly sold are designed for being dragged around a welding workshop so are hugely more robust than they need to be for us.

[Krysia@No98]

Better out than in, as my husband would say  

is there nothing that that Shrek quote doesn't cover? 

Mines inside, but that's because its far safer inside, I have no where secure to keep it out side and I have a stupid family living upstairs and they would fiddle with it.

My insurance company know that the 13.9kg tank is inside, they have told me that I can have up 25kg, but I can't lift that and if it was leaking then I would want to get it out ASAP.

[Billie]

Better out than in, as my husband would say  

is there nothing that that Shrek quote doesn't cover?  

It preceded Shrek by quite a while, as did hubster    

Rubber erosion

There is possibly a case for venting down the oxygen pipe to extend it's lifetime. I dount it would influence anyones decision to change their pipes though. The pipes commonly sold are designed for being dragged around a welding workshop so are hugely more robust than they need to be for us.

Interesting.  Thanks.

[Krysia@No98]

Better out than in, as my husband would say  

is there nothing that that Shrek quote doesn't cover?  

It preceded Shrek by quite a while, as did hubster    

I know, but when ever I see it it reminds me of the big green man

[Fruddy]

Fruddy: Regardless of your insurance policy you need to be alive to make a claim. It is likely that domestic insurance will not mention gas bottles but you should check. If you are using a gas bottle in a manner which the supplier does not allow then you are legally negligent, in just the same way that you are not insured for theft if you leave a window open. Check that your policy does not exclude negligence.

Stu, my bottle isn't inside my house, it is in the brick outhouse which is completely stand alone and separate from the house, but only about 30 feet away from the back door.

Would the rules in your post still apply?

[stuwaudby]

Keeping your bottle in an outhouse seems like an excellent option to me. If is separate to the house then there is no risk to sleeping occupants.

The only way to check your insurance is by reading it I am afriad.

[stuwaudby]

I was just checking the BBC news and came accross this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11671916

Four houses destroyed and 200 affected in Salford last night. Very lucky that no one was killed, although the guy with 30% burns will never fully recover.

That explosion was probably caused by a leaking gas pipe filling a room before igniting. The mode of explosion in this case is a simple gas / air explosion and very different to that caused by a gas bottle trapped in a fire.

Think about this: A 15 kg gas bottle contains 33.6 litres of liquid propane. When it vaporises it expands by 610 times resulting in 20.5 cubic meters of gas. Propane can ignite when it reaches a mixture of 2.1% in air. This means one 15 litre bottle can create 1,000 cubic meters of explosive mixture when mixed with air. This happens to be just enough to fill a large 4 bedroom house and turn it into a bomb.

The big danger of a gas bottle is called a BLEVE (look it up on google). This is where heat causes the pressure to rise in the bottle leading to a rupture. The gas then vaporises and escapes extremely quickly. almost immediatly the gas air liquid mixture ignites and causes a very destructive explosion.

[puffin]

I wanted to comment last night but I bit my tongue and stayed away from this topic. However today I saw the Salford comment and ..

All I wanted to say about the explosion in Salford is that it was not caused by a propane bottle. It was caused by someone NOT doing their job properly if it is true what is said in the papers concerning works being carried out on the property. However the 76 year old woman could have dementia for all we know and left the gas on . WE do not know.

So I would like to defend Lampworkers on here wherever they have their Propane bottles that , we are all aware GAS is very dangerous and most people Lampworking  with propane are far more aware and paranoid about doing all the safety checks because we do not want any accidents . We are not silly people that work with the torch in fact alot of us are even more aware of the dangers and what it could do. The accident in Salford was not a lampworker with propane . It was someone that works with Gas not doing there job.

[Blue Box Studio]

I thought the bleeding the pipe thing was something to do with propane not being a clean fuel and the pipes getting gunked up?  Sure I read that on here.

My gas is inside my shedio, only a little bottle and one has lived there safely until now for many a year.  I think that I'll need bigger for lampworking and am thinking how best to drill yet another hole in the timber frame (tougher than a shed and insulated) and then will need to get a quick release valve sorted.  I am hoping my local Calor shop would be able to sell me the bits or cut the current hose (only 3 months old) to fit the QR bits for me.