Storing propane indoors - how to be safe?

[Veebee]

After months of not being able to torch I am finally going to convert to bulk fuel for my HH. Now I don't wish to start a huge debate here, I'm just a bit nervous and would like some advice. The problem is that I live in a first floor flat with no outside storage area. I intend to buy the proper conversion kit and the proper spray to check for leaks, and I believe you can get a leak detector alarm (I think I read that somewhere here?) I will only get the smaller cylinder too.
I have no choice but to keep the cylinder indoors, which is the part that makes me nervous. Are there any additional safety tips you might be able to give me?
Thanks in anticipation 

[helbels]

I also have to keep my propane indoors, and am also in a 1st floor flat.

I have the quick release connectors, so that I don't have to unscrew the regulator each time.  I also bought an adjustable spanner so that I can make sure I really tighten the regulator connection up properly each time I change the tank.  When not in use, I store it away from sleeping/living areas, at the top of landing, because if propane leaks its heavier than air so would hopefully flow down the stairs, where there is just a door - and I also buy only the smallest bottle.  I also have a carbon monoxide detector.

My boyfriend pointed out that even if it was stored outside, if the place caught fire it would probably go "boom" anyway, whether stored inside or out.

I also think you need to keep in mind that many people throughout the UK use calor gas for cooking and heating, and don't even give a second thought to it.  Because we lampwork and know that its a hazardous activity, we tend to be hyper vigilant (which is a good thing), but don't forget to keep it in proportion.  As long as you make sure everything is tightened properly and keep plenty of ventilation going, you should be fine.   I have started to torch in a mask, as it turns out I'm very sensitive to propane fumes, but that's just me  

[Veebee]

Thank you!
Being in a flat, everywhere is a living area (it's not a very big flat) so I have a mind to keep the cylinder next to an "outside" wall, away from any doors that would need to be used to escape. I can't think of anything else I can do. I guess I just have to bite the bullet and go for it 

[helbels]

Well I've been at it for 4 months now and not suffered any misfortune yet.  At the end of the day, I know my set up is not ideal, but sometimes you just have to make the most of what you've got...   

[Helen G]

I toyed with posting this because I know if I were you, to say I would be absolutely gutted if I couldn't torch at home, would be a massive understatement. But then I thought if God forbid anything awful were to happen to you or anyone else and I hadn't pointed out the dangers to you.....well  
 
I have to say initially I couldn't see it being a problem, I used to have a superser calor gas heater in my flat but dad tells me that was butane. Which this document http://www.calor.co.uk/lpg/butane.htm says is fine for use/sotage indoors. It does give off quite a lot of condensation when burning though but with lampworking you'd want a window open at the very least anyway.

There is a difference between the 2 gases and unfortunately everything I read about propane says don't use/store it indoors as this passage explains why.

(Taken from American website www.ehow.com )
Tank Storage
In most states it is illegal to store propane tanks indoors. This is because of the way propane behaves in the case of a leak. Although it is stored in the tank in liquid form, propane becomes a gas when it is released. Propane gas is heavier than air, so it will sink to the lowest available space. Leaking tanks inside a home would promptly fill the basement with the flammable gas where a spark (such as the ignition on a water heater or electric furnace) would trigger an explosion.

Even when stored outdoors, a propane leak is dangerous. For this reason, a chemical compound is added to the propane so that it can be detected by smell (propane naturally has very little scent).

Though not regulated by law, tanks should be stored upright and kept clean. In some locales it is required that tanks be kept upright during transport. Rusty or damaged tanks should be replaced.
Tank Pressure
One of the dangers of propane tank use involves the extreme pressure under which the liquid propane is kept. Due to thermal expansion, this pressure rises as the temperature of the environment goes up. A tank stored just 80 percent full in 70-degree weather can have an internal pressure greater than 120 pounds per square inch.

For this reason, propane tanks are never filled completely, allowing room for expansion. In addition, propane tank valves feature a pressure release feature that allows gas to leak out when pressure gets too high (around 325 psi). This is because even gradual leakage is less dangerous than an explosion that could occur if a tank ruptures due to excessive pressure.

In the UK Flo Gas say this http://www.flogas.co.uk/pdf/propane-safety.pdf [url=http://

And Calor say this (couldn't get the link to work)
 Don't subject a cylinder to heat because pressure inside the cylinder could build up
to a point beyond the designed safety limit.
 Don't store or use cylinders in cellars, below ground level or near drains or gullies,
because propane and butane are heavier than air. If there is a leak the gas will
collect at a low level and become dangerous in the presence of a flame or a spark.
 Don't use propane cylinders indoors residentially because propane is contained
under higher pressure and should only be kept outside. Butane can be used indoors
in mobile heaters and when installed to the required standard by qualified gas
fitters (CORGI registered in Northern Ireland). Propane cylinders can be used
internally in Commercial and Industrial premises but their use should comply with
the requirements of LPGA Code of Practice 24 Part 6: 2000.
 Don't use cylinders in high rise flats.



Sorry to waffle but believe me Vicky, I really wish I could find something that said with common sense it's fine  

[Veebee]

Thank Helen, no worries 
I had read the Flogas safety PDF (under no circumstances etc etc..) and am aware that propane pools rather rising and dispersing like Mapp. But let me ask a question, do yu check for leaks periodically or every day? I would check every morning before turning on a light, and then again before torching. However, I am still nervous, hence the thread.
Can you torch with butane? Remember I'm on a HH. Whenever I do torch I have the window wide open in the room and other rooms, and the doors open too so that there is a constant flow of air, so condensation shouldn't be a problem. But would it be hot enough, and how would it be set up? I'd be surprised if it was the same as propane tanks.
I have to be able to torch again, Mapp is too pricey and a bottle loses pressure so quickly I am unable to learn any more than I have already, becaues it just doesnt last long enough for me to be able to play.
If butane were a safer option, and the HH could be converted to run off butane, and butane would run hot enough and also create the same flame chemistry for working with reduction glasses, I will go with butane at the drop of a hat.
Has anyone tried it?
Thanks again 

[Helen G]

As I understand it, it's not you switching the lights on or hairdryer or anything, it's anyone in a flat below you that could cause a problem because the gas will find it's way to the lowest point.

I thought the same about butane and whether it would work with a hothead maybe Martin at Tuffnells would know. Sal is well up on safety stuff too, so she may have better advice.



Of course the other thing to consider is I would imagine it would completely invalidate any insurance you have with the property 

But then I know my plumber brings a small tank of propane in the house to solder pipes without having a nervous breakdown about it!!??

God it's all so contradictory 

[Veebee]

 
LOL, yes it is, isn't it!
The smaller ones are sold to be portable to use for welding torches, gotta be a bit safe. I understand about the person below us though, so maybe if I get a metal bin to keep it in, if there is a leak it should pool in the bottom of the bin, and if I have an alarm in there too, I should be alerted to it before the pool overflows the bin?
Helen, don't fret, you aren't smashing up my dreams, you are being sensible and practical and it all helps. Remember, there are no problems, only solutions   

[helbels]

I think the companies obviously urge on the side of caution.  At the end of the day, propane is sold all over the place, at garages etc, and I can't believe it's only commercial premises that are buying it and using it.  There have been posts on the forums before from people who have static caravans and mobile homes, and they often have 2 tanks connected all the time.  Other folk have mentioned that they have propane in their kitchens for cooking.

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to personal attitude to risk.  If you think about it, a lot of smokers probably have a much increased risk of burning their houses down, due to what COULD happen if they fell asleep and dropped their cigarette on the sofa - but it's not very likely.

Personally I'm not too worried about the neighbours downstairs as we have solid concrete floors, so doubt any leaking propane could penetrate and kill them off unless it was very clever!

[helbels]

Just to add... doh I am such a div!  I mentioned this post to my bf, and he said "why don't you just put the propane round the corner where we keep our bikes?"  - we have our bikes chained up outside on the communal ground outside our flat, so I've popped my propane down there and covered it with the bike cover, so no-one would know it was there.    Hurrah!

While in use, the main risk of using propane is carbon monoxide, or pooling, but posts I have read say as long as your ventilation is good and you keep windows open (which I always do), this risk can be minimised.  At the end of the day EVERY lampworker is USING the stuff indoors (whether its in a shed or wherever), so I think the USING it inside is fine (although Flo-gas actually say not to do even that!)

Helen x

[Veebee]

Thanks er... Helen!
Our only outside area is the front of the house, not much use as it's open to the street. I think, on balance, that I am paranoid enough about being safe that I actually will be safe. I thank you both for you input, and I'm thinking that I'm willing to take the risk, with a couple of extra precautions. I'll still look into the butane thing though, because if that's considered safer, then that is what I'll do.
Thank you both again, you've been great!

[Scubeadoo]

Both propane and butane are heavier than air and will "pool" if there is a leak.

Both have a pong added and stink to high heaven if there is a leak.

I don't think a hothead will work with Butane as it is a bigger molecule ( 'scuse the chemistry) so a different fuel/air mix is needed to burn.

Butane needs a higher temperature to "gas off" from the liquid in the cylinder. I am not sure of the exact temperatures but we find that butane cylinders are no good for winter use in our motorhome as it does not gas off quickly enough to be much use below about 6c.

To swap between propane and butane we have to use different regulators which have different ( fixed ) working pressures.

Propane regulators will not fit butane bottles and vice aversa.

The metal bottles will explode eventually if subjected to high heat for a period of time BUT - we have had no probelms at temperatures of up to 40c in the van.

Hubby has seen the fire brigade extract cylinders from burning BT vans (Don't ask) that have been too hot to touch with bare hands and have not exploded- they tend to dump them in a handy wheelie bin full of water!

Bottles are tested regularly for safety - not sure of the test schedule but if similar to my scuba cylinder it has a visual test where they take out the valve and check the inside of the cylinder for corrosion and that the thread on the cylinder neck is ok. They also have a hydrostatic test where they fill them with water and pump them up to a test pressure that is considerably higher than the normal working pressure of the cylinder - they are measured before and during the test and if they expand by more than a set amount they are scrapped. This is why I would never buy a second hand gas cylinder from a boot fair as you don't know how long it has been since it was last back to the gas plant for filling and testing!

I think you will be O.K as long as you check for leaks regularly especially after changing cylinders (drop of soapy water is good for slow leaks) I'm sure you can get an LPG leak alarm from a caravan or motorhome dealer/accessory centre as a lot have people have them fitted after having refillable LPG systems installed -maybe Gaslow do them!

[Helen G]

Remember, there are no problems, only solutions   

Vicky, I love that!! Such a fantastic attitude 

If I'm honest, and I mean really honest, and I was faced with the same predicament..........I would have propane indoors rather than not torch 

[Pat from Canvey]

My propane has always been indoors (three years) and I've had no problems. My neighbour however had a TV catch fire . Is anyone going to store their TV's outside in future?

[♥♥Tan♥♥]

My propane has been inside for the last ten years, I've never had a problem with it. You understand what it's all about, you have plenty of ventilation and you respect it, you're good to go missus