Ventillation

[llewennog]

Hey guys

Not been too active here since I started lampworking but Ive upgraded my equipment to 2 oxycons and a Gtt Lynx and am starting to use boro for beadwork and tube implosions etc and am working towards pipemaking etc.

Ive a question reguarding Ventillation/ extraction and understand somone over in Usa Sadly died last year from posioning due to bad or no vent. A lot of the reactive colours we use contain potentially harmful metals ie silver's coppers chromes etc, whats the standard setup thats advocated here, I have a 45cm squriel fan sucking air from above my bench throwing into a carbon 'sock'.
Its mooving 450cubic meters per hr pulling air in from the external door of my studio and past me up into the fan, whats the standard used here on average? Whats the risk posed by 104 coe reactives with this vent?
Im not sure its good enough for handling chrome or fuming gold onto boro (its not part of a hood system or flame encapsulation extractor(which ive read doesnt work anyway) and would love some feedback as to what systems you people here are using for the sake of your lungs.

Its also one of those things you never see for sale at lampworking suppliers, so I'd also love some industry feedback from these folk who sell torches and boro.
Thanks
LLew

[Isibeads]

Hello

we have made a lot of tests at our studio for the last years. The most important thing is that you catch the exhausted gas from the torch as soon as you can. So it is better to place a exhaust system as near as possible to the flame instead of a hood which is placed above the workbench.

If you use a hood system, you have to install much more power to the fan as if you will position the system near to the flame. A 450 cm/hour system you will get some problems with your heating system in winter as you pull out all the temperature out and therefore cold air will come in. Also a sound silencer is needed with such a big system.

We have therefore developped a mobile system to be mounted just with a clambing system at the workbench and to place the end of the exhaust hose out of the open window. To seal the hose at the window, there is a special foile which is put at the window with a velcro tape (easy to remove after the beading).



There is also a video, you can see here: www.youtube.com/isibeads

If you will have more question, please send us a mail so we can provide all the specifications about it.

Best Regards
Gert

[llewennog]

Thanks for your input Gert, but Im working in an garage which isnt attached to my house and is only heated by my kiln and my current fan is as quiet as my 2 oxycons or the heavy metal im listening to all day.
Im looking at hood based systems because I work with boro a lot and am upgrading to a large torch eventually, a deltamag im afraid would melt your flame encapsulation system in seconds (i think my lynx would damage it very quickly too) and i dont really want to build several different systems as I upgrade torch, Ive also heared a lot of bad press about encapsulation devices, I.e them being cooked by bigger torches quickly.(Marbleslinger a well reknowned usa based pipemaker has an old torch that he cut in half with a newer torch so im sure an encapsulation device wouldnt last long:/)

I guess the input im looking for is more about the potential dangers of reactive  coe104 glass ie the metals they contain, the potential risk for health damage and why this isnt something that the customer is made aware of when purchasing their first torch and oxycon setup.
Most people are aware of the dangers of using silver fuming but not too many are aware of potential dangers from chromes and silvers being used in glass manufacture for those pretty reactive colours we all love, like I already said Id love some feedback from the traders who sell 'complete systems' on here, and Id also love to find out more about what metals are being used in the manufacture of these glasses

[mel]

Llew, You are making some really good points here I think. I was talking to some one who enamels jewellery who was worried about toxic fumes emitted from the kiln when enamalling, and basically left the room when the kiln was on. The conversation made me think there may be some parallel with the type of compounds emitted from lampworking. I have an overhead coooker extractor, but suspect it's not particularly good, despite waving josticks around. I also wonder if there is any cumulative effect. Maybe the safest way to go is to vent the room as best as poss and invest in a mask.

[llewennog]

I went to see my Gp today as Im being treated for intergestion/gastroenteritus, I brought the topic of heavy metals posioning up, and silver and chromium posioning show up as gastroenteritius, but both also show other side effects such as skin palour , nasal damage etc.
   He was very interested to hear about my research into this and suggested that maybe the manufacturers of these products should release more information about the risks, although given the 'alchemical' nature of these 'special' colours im sure most wouldnt risk their recipies being released to the general population. Although Northstar do list some of the metals used in their boro range in their colour use booklet and all colours that contain Chrome based colours are noted!

Another aspect of this subject id like to bring up is those of you that do vent, are you filtering your air through a carbon canister or just ditching it into the atmosphere?

Im a little shocked by the lack of response from the glass retailers but i guess their all too busy selling their products to respond.

[Hamilton Taylor]

Hi Llew,

I clocked this thread a while ago, and am currently working up a response to it, as you've raised so many questions.
As a placeholder for the moment, please accept the following.

First, the response from a glass manufacturer to a question similar to your own:

"The metals/chemicals  used in glass making are potentially hazardous to your health as any glass worker should know.This varies from glass to glass and from colour to colour.  However very little comes off the glass once it is made into rods. Fuming puts out far more chemical into the air. Our policy is( and common sense dictates) that no glass shop should turn on a torch unless it is adequately ventiallated with a fume hood, full stop. It's not hard to do and if you follow this rule there will be no problems from fumes from glass since it is all sucked out of the studio. Contact a HVAC professional if you don't know how to do this. Just the flame itself can put out potentially bad things like carbon soot. In general any person contemplating a craft should familiarize themselves with all health and safety precautions before they begin."

Obviously, as an answer to your concerns, this is inadequate.

I am informed that, at the temperatures involved in working 104, very little fuming occurs, with regard to metals used in the glass. (incidentally, these metals are not limited to 'fancy' glasses, but appear throughout the colour range). Boro work, though, may well be a different matter.

Further, current thinking seems to be that the primary concern should be combustion byproducts from the flame itself. Most lampworkers in the uk are using oxycons. An oxycon produces +-95% oxygen, so the rest will be mainly nitrogen. At temp, nitrogen and oxygen will react to form a variety of nitrogen oxides. Here's a random snip from a google search on nitrogen oxides + toxicity.

"What are nitrogen oxides?

Nitrogen oxides are a group of gases that are composed of nitrogen and oxygen. Two of the most common nitrogen oxides are nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide. The chemical formula for nitric oxide is NO; for nitrogen dioxide, it is NO2. Nitrous oxide, N2O, is a greenhouse gas.

Nitric oxide is a gas with a sharp, sweet smell; it is colorless to brown at room temperature. Nitrogen dioxide is a colorless to brown liquid at room temperature, with a strong, harsh odor. It becomes a reddish-brown gas at temperatures above 70 degrees F.

Nitrogen oxides are released into the air from motor vehicle exhaust, or the burning of coal, oil, and natural gas, especially from electric power plants. They are also released during industrial processes such as welding, electroplating, engraving, and dynamite blasting.

Nitrogen oxides, when combined with volatile organic compounds, form ground-level ozone, or smog. They are also produced by cigarette smoking.

Nitric oxide is used to bleach rayon and produce nitric acid. Nitrogen dioxide is used to produce rocket fuels, explosives, and other chemicals. Nitrogen dioxide is sometimes used to bleach flour.

How might I be exposed to nitrogen oxides?

Nitrogen oxides are common pollutants found in most of the air in the United States. You can be exposed to nitrogen oxides outdoors by breathing air that contains it, especially if you live near a coal-burning electric power plant or areas with heavy motor vehicle traffic. You can be exposed to higher levels if air pollution and smog levels are high.

You can be exposed at home if you burn wood, or use a kerosene heater or gas stove.

You can be exposed at home or at work, indoors or outdoors, through smoking cigarettes or breathing second-hand cigarette smoke.

You can be exposed at work if you work in a facility that produces nitric acid, explosives such as dynamite and TNT, or welded metals.

How can nitrogen oxides affect my health?

Exposure to high industrial levels of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide can cause death. It can cause collapse, rapid burning and swelling of tissues in the throat and upper respiratory tract, difficult breathing, throat spasms, and fluid build-up in the lungs. It can interfere with the blood's ability to carry oxygen through the body, causing headache, fatigue, dizziness, and a blue color to the skin and lips.

Industrial exposure to nitrogen dioxide may cause genetic mutations, damage a developing fetus, and decrease fertility in women. Repeated exposure to high levels of nitrogen dioxide may lead to permanent lung damage. Industrial exposure to nitric oxide can cause unconsciousness, vomiting, mental confusion, and damage to the teeth. Industrial skin or eye contact with high concentrations of nitrogen oxide gases or nitrogen dioxide liquid can cause serious burns.

Long-term exposure to nitrogen oxides in smog can trigger serious respiratory problems, including damage to lung tissue and reduction in lung function. Exposure to low levels of nitrogen oxides in smog can irritate the eyes, nose, throat, and lungs. It can cause coughing, shortness of breath, fatigue, and nausea.

If you think you have been exposed to nitrogen oxides, contact your health care professional."

I guess the above should convince anyone using a torch that ventilation is a good idea. However, please note the use of the terms 'Exposure to high industrial levels', 'Industrial exposure', 'Long-term exposure'. The size/power of your extraction should be proportional to your torch time. 8hrs/day, 5days/week counts as 'industrial'. 1hr a night, except Tuesdays (badminton) and Fridays (night out), with a longer session on Sunday, is not. There is a very real danger of scaremongering, here, hence my delay in responding in  full to your questions.

I do have access to some information about the colourants used in glass, which is all in the public domain (ie not proprietary), if any are interested.

I agree that current ideas on 'flame encapsulation' that I've come across seem to be inadequate, but that certainly doesn't mean that an adequate one could not be, or has not been, developed.

Some of the reasons we do not sell ventilation equipment include:-

• We are not ventilation designers, or manufacturers
• We are a small company, and cannot afford to keep stock of such equipment
• We cannot afford the space to store such equipment
• Most people seem to prefer to make their own arrangements, anyway

Once again, apologies for the incompleteness of this post, but it is going to take a while to cover all the bases. Meanwhile, if you have any questions arising from the above, please let me know (post them here, or pm me), and I'll try to address them for you.

Regards,

Sean

[llewennog]

Sean

Thanks mate, I was starting to get concerned that I was maybe a little crazy, but I can see it has some foundations!
 
This leads me onto the more specific issue of boro, do you think a 45cm extraction fan feeding into a carbon sock filter, would be adequate venting?
I could also do with a little more information reguarding Trautman 33 coe,, Ive looked on their website and cant find any information about specific metals, I would imagine that if my ventillation is adequate then it is academic, but its always good to have a bit more information.

Thanks for the informative post

LLew

[Hamilton Taylor]

I'm afraid extraction is not just a matter of how big your fan is.

It's related directly to the power of the fan, resistance of any ducting/filters, gas throughput of your torch, the size of the room you are working in (or the size of the hood you are working under). Most people here are working on small torches (with small throughput, requiring low volume extraction) at (relatively) low temperatures, where less (if any) metals content is volatilised (although the nitrogen oxides issue is still relevant - see this post by Stacy). Beadysams post on fan requirements and how to calculate them here is, I think, ultimately derived from a Ventilation Primer by Mike Aurelius here. Obviously, the legal requirements set out in Mikes posts are US based, but the requirement for a safe pair of lungs is the same for us all.

Regarding constituents of coloured glass, no manufacturer is going to release proprietary information, but there is plenty out there about what metal oxides are used to create what colours, even for the amber/purples and fancy strikers. These are common across the industry, with minor variations between manufacturers.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Sean