Frit-Happens !

Tutorials in here.. => Tips and tricks => Topic started by: Mand on April 11, 2008, 10:53:58 AM



Title: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Mand on April 11, 2008, 10:53:58 AM
Hi

I am perplexed. I'm also a newbie, so that will explain my question. How on earth do you get a silver core into a glass bead? ??? I haven't even got my torch and bench set up yet, but I am truly intruiged. Can anybody who has the patience of a saint explain HOW, please?  :-X

(I obviously won't be attempting this feat for quite some time as I need to learn how NOT to melt a mandrel first, and also how to make a ROUND, even bead of course.... but ya know how the mind buzzes with all those "how do they do that" questions....)(Maybe it's a good question for Des Lynam who does the programme to look into...)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: glassworks on April 11, 2008, 11:07:29 AM
three basic ones i have heard of....

1.. the "hard" way - silver tube and dapping punches, lots of patience and tears but by far the best technique when learnt

2.. the "glue in" split silver cores, still works well enough but has issues with seams and getting things to line up

3... the "cheat" machine from some guys in the states.. saw pati demo'ing this in murano and it looks easy enough, but not as fine quality as hand beating it!!!

anyone else?...


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Isabelle on April 11, 2008, 11:56:48 AM
 I think it has something to do with swearing! And crying and tantruming - and some more swearing - and what Quinton said!


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Billie on April 11, 2008, 12:26:48 PM
This link is also in the tute section.  Explains it well  :)

http://www.dawnandevan.com/silver_core.htm



Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: beads-on-toast on April 11, 2008, 12:52:51 PM
three basic ones i have heard of....

1.. the "hard" way - silver tube and dapping punches, lots of patience and tears but by far the best technique when learnt

2.. the "glue in" split silver cores, still works well enough but has issues with seams and getting things to line up

3... the "cheat" machine from some guys in the states.. saw pati demo'ing this in murano and it looks easy enough, but not as fine quality as hand beating it!!!

anyone else?...

i don't agree, and i don't think Andrea Guarino would either, it is not a cheat way, just a different way


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: afina on April 11, 2008, 12:58:22 PM
There is a machine also being developed at the moment in Germany. Really looking forward to this one!


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: TheJanie on April 11, 2008, 01:00:15 PM
Anyone have any links to these magical machines of which you speak? :)

I'd prefer to have a try at the dapping punch method (I already have all the necessary bits for this) but I'm always looking for ways to save my energy so that I can spend more time at the torch...


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: ♥♥Tan♥♥ on April 11, 2008, 01:01:01 PM
I have never even seen a silver core in the hand Anna but have often wondered if there is a difference between the hand method and the machine method.

Is there a discernible difference do you think?

I know the hand method takes a great deal of effort and accident, but when done properly the results are spectacular, if a machine does all that without the breakages though, it seems to make more sense


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: afina on April 11, 2008, 01:07:11 PM
Hi!
Here is a link to the one made by Jim Moore:
http://www.toolsforglass.com/catalogs/beadpress_video.html (http://www.toolsforglass.com/catalogs/beadpress_video.html)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: turnedlight on April 11, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
If you look carefully at loads of cored beads (like I did) you can see the ones which have been flared using a machine.. there's often a sort of flashing on them.. I don't really know how to explain..  I was going to buy / persuade my Dad to try and make a bench press type one, and after looking at loads decided they don't look all that good. I'm planning to get around to learning the dapping punch way.. in the meantime, if anyone can correct me on the quality of the machine results, I'd be very happy cos I want one!


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: TheJanie on April 11, 2008, 01:12:30 PM
in the meantime, if anyone can correct me on the quality of the machine results, I'd be very happy cos I want one!

Me too!  Although I'm not sure how much of my enthusiasm is simply down to my love of tools and gadgetry... ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: GoodMonkey on April 11, 2008, 01:14:24 PM
If you look carefully at loads of cored beads (like I did) you can see the ones which have been flared using a machine..  

I agree the hand cored and the machine cores have a different look to them.   This is something I have also been looking at for a long time. I want to learn the hand method as I prefer the hand cored - but thats just my opinion on what I would like to do and in no way reflects upon anyone elses practices or indeed their opinions.



Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: ♥♥Tan♥♥ on April 11, 2008, 01:32:33 PM
Am I right in thinking that the machine cored dont fit quite as tightly as the hand cored or is that just they way the pics are taken?


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: GoodMonkey on April 11, 2008, 01:44:54 PM
Tan

As you can appreciate it's very difficult to tell from photographs and perhaps it's a disservice to the people who produce the machine cored ones - but - and this is only my view - the machine ones appear to have a edge to the silver sores where the hand cored ones are a smoother more folded over finish.

Having said that some of the 'names' in the states are raving about the machine - have a look at mango beads for some really nice examples of hand cored beads.


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Lush! on April 11, 2008, 01:48:53 PM
If you look carefully at loads of cored beads (like I did) you can see the ones which have been flared using a machine.. there's often a sort of flashing on them.. I don't really know how to explain..  I was going to buy / persuade my Dad to try and make a bench press type one, and after looking at loads decided they don't look all that good. I'm planning to get around to learning the dapping punch way.. in the meantime, if anyone can correct me on the quality of the machine results, I'd be very happy cos I want one!

Do you use the glue-in variety then? 

It would be great to have a look at all three together .. maybe something to think about for the Flame Off  ::)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: astringofbeads on April 11, 2008, 02:21:39 PM
I'll add my 2 penneth here, having handcored somewhere in the region of 2000, yes that's 2000 beads in the last year  :o :D I have tried all methods and all the machines on the market and I think at the end of the day you can't beat doing it yourself. Once you've mastered it you can core any size hole and are not therefore limited by the dies you can buy for a machine or the size of rivets you  can buy. I can understand using a machine, and lets face it some of the big companies that sell these beads use them, as you should get less wastage and it may well be easier to do. But you've still got to cut the tube and annel it before, so it's not really saving that much in terms of time.At the end of the day it's whatever method that works for you, and also  if you are selling them then your customers will be the best judge, if they come back for more ;) :D


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Vicki on April 11, 2008, 02:25:20 PM
the thing is if you use a machine can you say truely that it is handmade??  hey is there was a machine that lampworked the beads for us would we get one??? would we heck ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: TheJanie on April 11, 2008, 02:44:26 PM
the thing is if you use a machine can you say truely that it is handmade??  hey is there was a machine that lampworked the beads for us would we get one??? would we heck ;)

Ooh now, there's a good talking point!  I agree that there's a level at which something becomes machine-made... but where is that level?

I used to hand-saw my jump rings - now I use a Koil Kutter attachment on my Dremel;  I used to drill holes in silver with a hand-drill - now I use a drill press.  And I polish my jewellery in a tumbler, never by hand anymore (been covered in jeweller's rouge once too often!)  However, I don't consider my jewellery to be any less handmade.  Besides, have you ever sat down and hand-cut hundreds of jump rings at a time?  I did - but only a couple of times before realising what a god-awful task it is!  Never, ever again!  ::)

IMHO I'd say using the bead press still qualifies a piece as being handmade because using the press still requires some amount of judgement on the part of the operator.  You have to get a feel for when you've pressed enough to make the silver core secure without breaking the bead.  I've a feeling, though, that I might be better sticking to dapping punches :)

I wonder if it's possible to use the machine to do start things off and then do the final finishing by hand to give it a more "rounded over" look?  Having never seen one of these machines or a finished piece made on it IRL, it's difficult to tell...


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: astringofbeads on April 11, 2008, 02:55:00 PM
That is an interesting point! We all use machines in some form to create our works of art, take the humble oxycon, that's a machine, or unless you have an assistant sat there puffing bellows all day   ;D then we have to accept that machines make up at least some part of our beads. But they are aides, that's all, and the coring machine is just that too. Yes you can start them off with a machine, and finish them by hand, but for me, I don't see the point. In terms of time I would say it would take longer per bead overall, so get those dappers out and have a go ;D ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: TheJanie on April 11, 2008, 03:21:04 PM
Yes you can start them off with a machine, and finish them by hand, but for me, I don't see the point. In terms of time I would say it would take longer per bead overall, so get those dappers out and have a go ;D ;)

I will at some point - that's another thing I've been meaning to have a go at for a few months now.  I'm the Queen of Procrastination, me  ;D

Speaking purely personally, I might sometime consider the press as an "easier" way to start the cores off simply because I have to be so careful with my energy levels and the less tapping I have to do, the better... but that's for when I have nothing else to save my money for!  I do prefer to know how these things are done from scratch, so I'll be starting there :)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: astringofbeads on April 11, 2008, 03:38:31 PM
Go for it :D
The only thing I would say against the machines is that they are precision instruments and there is pretty much no room for error on the shape and even-ness of your bead, so any irregularity in the shape will kill your bead. Hand dapping is a bit more forgiving in this respect ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 11, 2008, 03:44:48 PM
From what I've seen of the machines (though I've never used one) you still need a good level of skill. I don't think you drop a bead in one end and out pops a neatly made silver core bead from the other end. They're more "jigs" than machines - it lines up the tube and flares it for you - that's all. You still have to cut the tube, anneal it, clean it, finish it (most importantly) and so on.
Yes, of course it's handmade - just as handmade as a bead using a PRESS is - and I bet there's not many here who would argue that a bead made with a press is not still "handmade".
The Troll/Pandora/Love Links beads are all beads with the rivits glued in. You only have to look at them to see the difference in quality.


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: silverlemon on April 11, 2008, 06:11:33 PM
I'm working on a UK coring machine/tool at the moment, further to an idea that Dickie and I had on a boring drive up to IKea one day about a year ago .....watch this space.  ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: ♥♥Tan♥♥ on April 11, 2008, 11:17:04 PM
That is an interesting point! We all use machines in some form to create our works of art, take the humble oxycon, that's a machine, or unless you have an assistant sat there puffing bellows all day   ;D

Funny you should say that, I refuse to use an oxycon in favour of a little man I get in to do my puffing for me :D


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Mand on April 12, 2008, 03:49:15 AM
Oh my goodness, I started somehting here then ... what I really wanted to know was do you heat them in the torch flame to sort of melt them into the bead core? Or is there no torching involved at all? ???


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: ♥♥Tan♥♥ on April 12, 2008, 04:53:56 AM
You make the bead on a large hole mandrel then add the core, unless you are using pmc then you make the core, wedge it on the mandrel and make the bead on it


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: turnedlight on April 12, 2008, 05:14:40 AM

Do you use the glue-in variety then? 



Yes, I do, although I'm getting hold of some dapping punches, I'm interested to try it..
I haven't had a prob with the glue in sort.. it's just a different market!

Here is a pic of mine, and my bracelet..

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2366181115_191e5a429a_m.jpg)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: turnedlight on April 12, 2008, 05:19:20 AM
the thing is if you use a machine can you say truely that it is handmade??  hey is there was a machine that lampworked the beads for us would we get one??? would we heck ;)

That's like saying you can't buy a lobster clasp for your handmade necklace.. ! I do quite a bit of silver work, and make my own toggles, headpins etc, and when I use these I make sure to say.. but I sometimes use bought findings, and I view the cores I use that way. The art is in the bead, isn't it? And anyway, the machine is handcranked.. (the ones I've seen anyway) not automated.


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Mand on April 12, 2008, 05:28:31 AM
Your bracelet and beads look gorgeous! ;D


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Mand on April 12, 2008, 05:31:19 AM
Hi Tanok

 ??? :-[What's "pmc"? (Am a bit of a thicko on acronyms ... only learned this week what DH and LOL mean, sad I know!" ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Billie on April 12, 2008, 05:47:46 AM
PMC is precious metal clay  :)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 12, 2008, 05:53:19 AM
Yep, it's a TLA.... ;D


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Lush! on April 12, 2008, 06:47:48 AM
Here is a pic of mine, and my bracelet..

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2366181115_191e5a429a_m.jpg)

GORGEOUS!!!


Come on then Sal, somebody's got to ask .... TLA?

 ;D


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 12, 2008, 07:27:30 AM
Three letter acronym....hehehe.... ;)


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: Vicki on April 12, 2008, 07:30:30 AM

Yes, I do, although I'm getting hold of some dapping punches, I'm interested to try it..
I haven't had a prob with the glue in sort.. it's just a different market!

Here is a pic of mine, and my bracelet..

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2366181115_191e5a429a_m.jpg)
[/quote]

Yum :P


Title: Re: How do you get the silver cores into beads then, eh?
Post by: ♥♥Tan♥♥ on April 12, 2008, 07:57:14 AM
Hi Tanok

 ??? :-[What's "pmc"? (Am a bit of a thicko on acronyms ... only learned this week what DH and LOL mean, sad I know!" ;)

Pooey Moo Cows