Okay I give up and am never going to work with this glass again, I've got more cracked and messed up beads using it that without it! and I now missed out on a days work due to it - and not too happy about this, its my only income and its pretty heartbreaking to see nice beads ruined :-( I've only got 50% of the beads I made that I can sell.
I even annealled it at the higher reccommended temp, garaging (not bulk) and gave it such a good soak... but it was having massive cracking problems
I tried using it only with other CIM glass.... 50% of those beads have thermal cracks...
I tried using it just on its own, it cracked...
Whenever i work sculpturally with it, just on its own, its cracks - even in the flame as i worked on it when it hadnt been taken out of it!
It seems to hate being pressed and will crack straight after being pressed.
It even has cracked in the flame for me, even when it hadnt had been removed from the flame.
So basically it cracked on me both working with it - and after annealling.
I dont know if this was a dodgy batch? but everything I tried with it ended in disaster. The rods were incredibly shocky too (on par with anice white) and were as stiff to work with as boro - it really didnt like being marvered or pressed and it was so hard to do. This was nothing like the Cirrus batch I had used before :-(
and weirdly, I tried a rod of cirrus that Martin had sent me to compare it (this Batch was from Q)... totally different! was much wetter to work with and totally totally opaque straight from the rod, no striking either! in fact was nothing at all like the batch I bought from Q.
Anyone else had similar problems?
Its such as a shame as the glass is REALLY nice to look at, and the original batch I had I really liked.
i will get kathy to come on over and have a read through this for you - she is very good at staying on top of technical issues with her glass..
cheers
Q
our new CiM is all supplied by martin, if it was bought from us a while ago it was a batch that came from mike frantz... it may be a batch thing - but then please keep one rod free so we can ship it back to kathy to have it checked out.. fortunately with glass like this it is really easy to trace batch problems if they occur..
It was bought a while back, so I guess it was the batch from Mike Frantz - as its a totally different kettle of fish to Martin's sample that he sent me. and also different to the very first batch I bought from you (in fact all different cirruses have been very different!).
I dont have a spare rod of it as I used it all up desperately in vain trying to get a set done successfully- and 2 rods completely shattered in the flame. hey, i can give you the shattered glass from it - its still all over my desk :D
I probs have a spare little stubby though? very small though - as i work with hemostats to get the most from my rods :D
oh that's cool - it obviously would help us if we had a few bits to get back to kathy to check out.. i can reship a batch of cirrus to you which comes from the latest shipment to replace the dodgy lot?..
send me a pm if you would like me to do that, i'll square up with kathy later...
cheers
Q ;)
edit - in fact, i'm being a bit dim - your package is here that goes out tomorrow, i have added a double pack of the latest cirrus and martin, kathy and i can sort the details out later... we cannot help with the beads you've lost, but hopefully this will be a solid batch for you...
Oh Claire, what a pain, I didnt have any problems with my cirrus but I had a whole batch of moretti skin pink exactly like that, it only had to look at the flame and it exploded
Oh thanks Q - you didnt have to do that!!!!!!!!! wow - thanks!
I'll get some bits off of my desk and keep them aside.
Cant wait to try this new one - as it does look nice over CIM leaky pen - and looks like mists against a night sky.
Oh one thing I forgot to say as well - it also seemed to dislike having stringerwork attached to it! Even well melted in raised stringer pinged off after annealling.
heres one of the few surviving pieces (not the best cylinder as it wouldnt be marvered much for love nor money!). But it shows the nice cirrus on leaky pen effect :-) But i dont think its safe selling it in case it cracks later or that stringerwork issue.
ooo send it to me and I'll tell you if it cracks :D ;)
I got a bigger version you can have if you dont mind that it has cracks in the bottom?
(me waits for a smutty comeback..)
nonononoonononononoonononono she MUST send it to ME for scientific analysis in case it cracks!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
Damn! I was going to offer to take it off your hands >:( Beaten to it by the Phantom Tan Tan again!! ;D ;D
LOOK you all KNOW I LOVE CRACKS OF ALL KINDS especially THE RUDE ONES ;D ;D
yes Claire I would happily accept alllll of your cracked beads....and love them forever ;D :-*
TAN! i just saw your sig!!!!!!!
thats made me larf!
;D :-*
Dear Claire,
I am sorry to hear about your difficulties working with Cirrus. Cirrus is what I refer to as our most "temperamental" glass. (Please note that includes Halong Bay and Peacock Green as all three are the same base formula.)
We engineered Cirrus in response to customer requests for an opal milk glass like the difficult-to-obtain moonstones. We tested Cirrus over 50 times before we could get the working properties to be what customers wanted: no matter how long you leave it in the flame it will stay translucent, and you can control the level of milkiness by striking it. It was difficult to formulate a glass that would stay translucent even after annealing.
Unfortunately the downside is that Cirrus, Halong Bay, and Peacock Green are tricky to work with. Here are the major points, though if you are interested you can read more here: http://www.creationismessy.com/Color/08Neutral/Cirrus.aspx.
• Work hotter.
• Put your beads in the annealer hot.
• Adjust the annealing temperature. (The recommended annealing range for Cirrus is 970-1040° F / 520-560° C.)
• Stick to smaller mandrels.
We subject Messy Color to rigorous compatibility testing at the factory and would never ship anything that does not pass our tests. However, occasionally a section of the cane pull can be more shocky, the bottom and top of the pot can be different, etc. This may account for why you see differences in your purchases.
It is true that during my visit to the factory in April we upgraded the quality of all Messy Color (and Martin's shipment reflects those improvements). I am fastidious about testing and as we learn more about our glass we make every effort to improve. This is entirely due to our most excellent testers and customers like yourself who provide detailed information about the working properties of Messy Color, so I appreciate that you took the time to detail the challenges you faced with Cirrus.
We are currently making more investments in measuring the working properties of all 104 colors so we will continue to improve the quality of Messy Color as we learn even more.
It is the CiM mission to add new colors to your existing 104 palette that are premium quality, consistent from batch to batch, and readily available. Since we are working on unique colors, all Messy Color is going to work extremely differently, even from each other.
I hope this information helps. Claire, sounds like you have tried most of the above tips already. I will PM you shortly for further discussion.
I understand Tuffnell received their shipment but I hope you will all feel free to contact me directly with any challenges you are facing or any discoveries about the working properties of Messy Color. I can be reached at Kathy@creationismessy.com.
Kathy
thanks kathy, i have already received my stock and allt he glass going out for the last week or so is all the new batch.. the demand for cirrus meant it was the first one we ran out of last time!..
as i mentioned - i have reshipped cirrus to clare, as this is definitely the new batch!
;) ;D
what news new colours?..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
We have three new colors:
Pumpkin
Canyon de Chelly
Dirty Martini
See photos here:
http://www.creationismessy.com/Product/Color/indev.aspx
ooooohhhhh
kewl!!!!
;D ;D ;D
Kathy,
I worked hot, as hot as i could get...
I worked on 1.6mm mandrels
I put them in hot straight into the kiln
They were annealled at the range you said (at 550c, but it often went a little higher due to overshooting)
I spent an hour reading up on it before I started to make sure as I knew it was tempramental - but the colour of it appealled to me so much, and the idea of using it as a "Mist" in my landscapes appealled to me :-(
I'll see how i get on with the new lot, the half rod I got from Martin as a tester seemed completely different, in fact was a little annoying as it went straight to opaque from the rod! :D
I may not be able to answer the PM immediately Kathy, as I am going away for a few days but will try to asap
heres the pics showing the 2 different cirruses! freaky eh?
(http://www.rowanberryglass.com/cirrusprobs1.jpg)
(http://www.rowanberryglass.com/cirrusprobs2.jpg)
Wow! You'd never think they'd been worked the exact same way if you hadn't seen the "combo" bead...
Quote from: Kathy Seamands on June 28, 2007, 06:09:59 PM
Cirrus is what I refer to as our most "temperamental" glass.
Oh bum ! I just bought some, I don't stand a chance - run for cover folks !!!
WOW yu really have tested that glass to within an inch of its life Clair! ROLF
I shall get out my stash I picked up from martin, have a play about with it and let you know how it went hmmm I think i will stick to 'normal' beads for this, I just couldnt stand to see a critter crack :(
Each time i did a goddess with it, it cracked big time. So not sure how it cracks up to sculptural (geddit? har har).
Yeh I did test it out to an inch of its life - basically coz the test bead I did came out nice so I thought I'd run with it and do 2 sets, and a wodge of focals and a goddess and used it all up! But the test bead was from glass from my original batch - sob!!!!!!!
P.S. Emma it was fab chatting with you today - I tried out the "tip" too, we'll see how they come out from the kiln!!!!
just so everyone is clear - we ran out of the "old" bach of cirrus quite some time ago and as martin is now the european distributor of CiM our replacement order is from him... al orders from the last few weeks will have been filled from the new stock from martin..
kathy will look into this for us, as CiM is a small and tightly controlled glass works... anyone who suspects that they have an earlier batch should please email either martin or i - and we can take it up with kathy!...
;) ;D
from the rod I got from martin, the new batch seems a whole different kettle of fish!
Claire,
Thank you so much for posting those clear and definitive photos.
I spent some time talking to our batch mixer and chemist this weekend. We have come to the conclusion that the two batches of Cirrus are different. We have pinpointed the cause and corrected the flaw in our quality control system so as not to experience this again.
We are re melting Cirrus and air shipping replacements to Martin later this week (along with our newest colors). Martin will be individually contacting those that have already purchased Cirrus.
The batch that Tuffnell has in stock tested 104 compatible, but you are correct in that their stock is more likely to turn opaque than regular Cirrus. Please label your rods to avoid confusion. We've been told that the Cirrus you have in hand is especially good for making larger sculptural pieces like ghosts, snowmen, etc.
I apologize for this situation and hope it has not caused any great inconvenience. Claire, I applaud your attention to detail and will be sending you a package soon to thank you for your discovery.
Kathy
I am happy to help and to have spotted this for you!!!!!
I am wondering whether this "odd" batch of cirrus would make a nice replacement for effetre anice white as it does have that ghostly whiteness that anice white does, will try it later :D
I hadn't used my Cirrus for ages - so I got mine out again. I've had no problems with beads craking - but I had forgotten how tempremental it is. I was warming up the rod in the flame - and it shattered into loads of pieces - too small to use really - guess I'll have to keep them till I get a glass crusher!!
Q - I don't want anything back - but do you want me to send them to you so you can get it checked?
Trudi
ooo any plans on where your going to get a glass crusher from???
Tuffnells sell them!
There are so many other things I need to spend my pennies on first though!
the tempramental batch all depends on what batch I think, how long ago did you buy that cirrus?
Crikey - I think just after Q started stocking it!
i have had 4 batches in total - three from mike and the restock from martin.. we're trying to figure out which of the batches the rowanberry glass came from - we have had no reports from mike of kathy about any dodgy batches at all in the states - so we are a little perplexed.. we ask that if there is any at all of the dodgy rods left to please get them posted to us so we can forward them to kathy..
;)
Hi
If I'm careful I am managing to use it - just so you can check it out can i send you craked shards??
And what address do I use?
Thanks
Trudi
either...
I cant send you mine Q as I cant work out what came from what batch as I used 2 batches in that session.
My first batch that worked nice, that was bought just after you got it I think Q.
Of course the second batch problem could have just been me being crap of course...
I just want to jump in here to clarify. Cirrus is a very temperamental glass - that is nothing out of the ordinary.
I have reviewed my testing records and, with the exception of Claire's discovery about the batch that turned opaque (which is Tuffnell's shipment), there is not a bad batch.
Our testers for the most part describe Cirrus as "testy," "shocky," "sensitive," etc. Unfortunately this happens to be the working properties of a glass that will not turn opaque even if you work it for a long time and anneal it properly.
We formulated Cirrus to respond to requests for moonstones, and many of those who were hoping for just such a milk glass have been very happy with it. However, it is tricky.
I've posted feedback and quotes from our testers here so you can get a feel for the working properties: http://www.creationismessy.com/Color/08Neutral/Cirrus.aspx.
As with any glass, I understand that some people will avoid Cirrus because of its working properties. I wish I could say we could make every color easy to use but unfortunately that is unrealistic.
I hope if any of you have suggestions or ideas that would be helpful to contribute to our Web site about working with Cirrus, that you will e-mail me at Kathy@creationismessy.com.
Thanks,
Kathy
thanks for that kathy
;)
I thought you might all want to know that the air shipment of Cirrus replacements has arrived at Tuffnell. This batch of Cirrus will not turn opaque like Claire's batch.
Thanks again, Claire, for discovering the batch mix up!
No probs :D
Also i thought i'd point out that I have been playing with Cirrus again yesterday - and both batches from Q and directly from Kathy were fine, not shocky and cracking like when I had originally posted about it here. It seemed to behave very well.
The only time I got a crack was when I made a massive tree bead focal - I think with Cirrus unless you have to have a big or powerful torch for very large focals, or working on tanked oxy (I dont, I work with a minor and 1 oxycon) as this cirrus baby likes to be kept hot! But i did pressed beads with it up to 23mm across and it was fine with them and no cracks in any of them.
In essence I think with Cirrus you have to develop a relationship with it, learn what it will do and wont do and come to an understanding with it. Once you do that, you can get some LOVELY effects that are worth the hassle.
Sorry to dig up an old topic - but I just wanted to double check something...
I've read through all the bits on here, and the link to the CIM webpage as well, and from what I can work out, Cirrus likes to go straight into the kiln - would that explain why the 3 beads I had cooling in my vermiculite have all cracked in half? Is there much chance of me getting it to cool so that I can batch anneal?
Out of the beads I've made, anything that has Cirrus as the base, or as an encasement, has cracked - the onle ones that have survived are the ones that have tiny bits of it as detail.
It's just so pretty, I really want to make it work!
Lucy x
Everything I have managed to find out about Cirrus says it is not really a glass that copes at all well with batch annealing. Perhaps if you worked on a very small scale? I wonder if anyone else has had successes though?
Jo x
i was asked to make some beads with silver in blue, encasing with lauscha would have turned the silver goldish,
long and dull story i ended up making them with palladium and encasing with cirrus, lost loads! not only in the vermiculite but during batch annealing
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg313/flowerjasper/xmas.jpg) thats why there are only 3 beads on the bracelet :D
sandy
Am really glad I read this and sorry to hear about the problems you've all been having but it has convinced me to abandon the pack of cirrus I've had sitting in my glass stash for a while :( ;D
Diane x
I made very small cirrus beads that were batch annealed ok
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/shine-on2/Beads/beads003.jpg)
But they were small!!! And a plus point for cirrus, if you use frit with it you tend to get a cleaner finish no pitting as you would with other glass!
I like the look of those, but can I make a teeny suggestion. I think the background detracts from the beads. I've found this with some of mine so notice it more with other peoples photos.