My next door neighbour has hinted that they don't like the idea that i have a
bottle of propane in the house, so being a good neighbour i thought I'll put it
outside via a pipe down the wall into a cabnet in the front garden, is this safe?
there is not much that would stop someone playing around with the taps and
pipes, does anybody else have this setup? pics please if you have.
Logically it is the safest way of keeping propane.
As it is outside any leakages from the bottle or regulator will dissipate into the atmosphere, rather than gathering in a pool in the lowest point in your house.
Should there be an emergency the fire brigade would have easy access to the cylinder and it would be visisbly obvioius should you be unavailable to tell them you have it.
I would guess that your insurance company would prefer to see it being outside the house as well.
Perhaps you could put a lock on the cabinet to deter any potential tampering.
Many people seem to get concerned about gas bottle exploding, but I once watched a car on fire (outside my house) when all the windows and tires exploded before the fire brigade realised there were gas cylinders in the boot - they took them out, but they hadn't exploded despite the intense heat. The biggest problem with propane is that it's a heavy gas - so it gathers in a pool in the lowest point (under the floor or in the basement etc) and can ignite if exposed to a naked flame or something similar. The nasty smell should alert you to any leak problems - provided, of course, that you are around.
Thanks Terri, im happy to leave it where it is but to insure the neighbours are happy
i dont mind moving it,
"I once watched a car on fire (outside my house)" still in Beirut then?
If you do move it outside make sure it's not near an open drain or gulley or your neighbours could still be in for a surprise!!!
IMHO I think your neighbours need to get over themselves - if you own the property then there is sod all they can do. If you want to be a good neighbour then that is fair enough but even if the thing is outside an explodes then it will also take out their house too!
The problem with having it outside are as such;
1. Canisters are highly nickable - and then extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.
2. The taps and fittings and fixings can suffer from the elements and become unsafe/stuck/jammed/frozen/corroded etc etc
3. The taps and fittings and fixtures can suffer from tampering thus endangering the safety of you and your neighbours.
4. You will be less likely to happen upon a leak because you won't smell it.
If a propane tank fuelled your duel fuel cooker (if you weren't on mains gas for example - and yes they are still quite common) then your neighbours wouldn't care less. Providing you keep your regulator and fittings in good order and check regularly for leaks then there is no problem with having it inside. I bet you, as a lampworker, take more care and attention of the serviceability of your canister than most people do in their caravans, holiday homes, patio heaters and boats or wherever else they may happen to use them.
people get neurotic about the "gas canister" issue and it is so unnecessary. Providing "we" are careful over their use then they are not a danger to anyone else. WRT the Fire brigade needing to know about the presence of one then make sure your neighbours know the location of it and if the FB are called for any reason that they are made aware of it by either you or the neighbour (what are the chances of you both being away in the middle of the night?). The canisters are designed to be very rugged and withstand high temp and pressures.
I suggest that if you are going to relent to the insinuated pressure from the neighbours then stick it outside in one of those plastic/metal small tool stores you can get from argos etc and secure it to the ground and lock it with a padlock and drill a hole in the side for you hosing thus all your expensive and important bits and bobs are out of sight and out of reach...... Then ask your neigbours if they want you to put your gas cooker outside tooooooo........... hee hee (yes I'm a trouble maker).
Tell them you're unhappy with them having candles in their house or a BBQ in their garden. You're more likely to get a house fire with a candle than a propane tank and the smoke from the BBQ can prompt an asthma attack let alone catch fire to fences etc. This actually happened to a neighbour.
I would be inclined to tell them where to stick it too - politely of course ;D
I live in a flat, so if my canister were to go kaboom then it would effect other residents. For the one resident that was worried about the lampworking (he was stressed about the kiln ::) ) I showed him my set up an pointed to all the detectors. I then pointed out that if it was going to go kaboom i would be right next to it and I really don't want that to happen so....
He did try to get me to promise that I wouldn't go out with the kiln on. I did say that I wouldn't for the first month. I got to bed with the thing on. I then repeated what a very wise man said to me (thank you Sean) you can always unplug it ;D
He is fine about it now. Maybe that's all you need to do!?! (Other neighbours can watch me while I'm melting too if they are so inclined through the window)
I have made sure that my flat is insured and everything is covered. I can have a canister that is up to 25kg in the flat before the insurance company gets worried. But seeing as I can just about lift the 13.9kg when it's full anything bigger then that isn't going to happen
try building a little housing for the top of the bottle that can be locked around to stop any chav action
the other option could be telling your neibour to keep their nose out :D
I know which one Id choose, mind you my landlady wasnt too impressed at the thought of a dewar of liquid oxy being delivered here until I expained it was safer than bottled oxy, She though Liquid oxy was rocket fuel,, DUHHHH!
Quote from: llewennog on March 18, 2010, 03:34:48 PM
She though Liquid oxy was rocket fuel,, DUHHHH!
coz yo can buy rocket fuel over the counter. Terrorists hand make their explosives to make it more of a challange ::)
Quote from: Krysia on March 18, 2010, 03:41:46 PM
Quote from: llewennog on March 18, 2010, 03:34:48 PM
She though Liquid oxy was rocket fuel,, DUHHHH!
coz yo can buy rocket fuel over the counter. Terrorists hand make their explosives to make it more of a challange ::)
lol ;D ;D ;D
The connections are brass - so they shouldn't really corrode - at least not enough to be a problem even with long exposure. This is why fittings on boats and ships are traditionally made of brass and they are exposed to salt water (very corrosive to metals). If you want to make sure then simply coat them with some WD40 (not the thread) and put a bag or something similar over them.
There are often comments referring to room heaters, patio heaters etc and gas - caravans/boats as well. But the gas that usually used in these appliances and in caravans and boats is butane - not propane. The gas bottles in a caravan are almost always sited outside the caravan in a little box type effort near the towing point. I lived on a boat for many years and had a gas cooker and fridge - both butane not propane. I also have a caravan.
While there are no hard and fast rules relating to the storage of propane in the home just consider that if you were a business premises there would be a lot of rules - most of which say that propane needs to be stored outside and away from gulleys and drains and anywhere near doors and windows (especially near to basements and cellars).
No not Beirut - simply an electrical fault on the car as it happened to be driving past my house. The point I was trying to get across is that despite the intense heat of the burning car the gas cylinders did not explode though they may have if left in more intense heat. The real issue with propane is leaks and the gas gathering in pools - the gas then becomes a source of fuel to a fire and could be responsible for starting a fire if exposed to a naked flame or a spark.
Getting back to the question of blowing up your neighbours house - the physics of a gas cylinder exploding like a bomb is the the force of the explosion would go up - not out. Therefore, you would blow the roof of your house off - could be a problem if your neighbour is in an upstairs flat. A good deal of the explosive force would go out through your windows as well. Got this info from hubby who has a B3Exp from his army days (they needed to know which way to run in bomb situations in N Ireland).
I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to choice - and is it worth really getting on bad terms with your neighbours over something that can be so easily addressed.
Quote from: Terri on March 18, 2010, 05:24:42 PM
The connections are brass - so they shouldn't really corrode - at least not enough to be a problem even with long exposure. This is why fittings on boats and ships are traditionally made of brass and they are exposed to salt water (very corrosive to metals). If you want to make sure then simply coat them with some WD40 (not the thread) and put a bag or something similar over them.
There are often comments referring to room heaters, patio heaters etc and gas - caravans/boats as well. But the gas that usually used in these appliances and in caravans and boats is butane - not propane. The gas bottles in a caravan are almost always sited outside the caravan in a little box type effort near the towing point. I lived on a boat for many years and had a gas cooker and fridge - both butane not propane. I also have a caravan.
Rubber corrodes. Moisture in brass quick release couplings freezes thus inhibiting the use of such couplings (bearings inside the fittings). Butane and propane are both gas - they burn and explode. Did you really need to nit pick the general gist of my thread or do you just have to be right? I couldn't give a toss about your husbands knowledge of bombs and directional blasts - he isn't the only one who has been there and done it. This is a thread about lampworkers using gas inside not proving points about where you have lived with how many gas canisters you have lived with thus implying superior standard of equipment husbandry. If you also read the thread my point was about care of "canisters" not care of propane. Again my post also backed up your point about them withstanding more heat and pressure....yada yada.
No need to split hairs - we can all do it. And don't patronise. Its not nice.
Quote from: Krysia on March 18, 2010, 03:41:46 PM
Quote from: llewennog on March 18, 2010, 03:34:48 PM
She though Liquid oxy was rocket fuel,, DUHHHH!
coz yo can buy rocket fuel over the counter. Terrorists hand make their explosives to make it more of a challange ::)
you certainly dont need Liquid Oxy to make a bomb, fertiliser & sugar worked very very well for a long time :D
My spidersenses are tingling that troubles brewing :D ahh one of the joys of forums, NO ONE is wrong and everyone is right dont spoil Pups thread by bitching, the guy is asking for advice nto who can be the most right.
The one point I would like to make about the lass who had the bomb expert husband is they musta taught his regiment to run a f&*k sight faster than ours! a 300mph explosion my god were they in the 1st regiment of superheros or what?
Just going to say i keep my propane tank inside, only a 13kg one though! and to be fair neither of our neighbours have any clue about it and i wouldnt care anyway, i have no choice and i am very careful with it, my pipes get bled after ever session and then the torch gets disconnected from the bottle, i even screw the little plastic cap back in the bottle just to be sure it cant leak! As long as your sensible propane tanks really arent that dangerous!
Quote from: SilverGems89 on March 19, 2010, 04:15:49 PM
Just going to say i keep my propane tank inside, only a 13kg one though! and to be fair neither of our neighbours have any clue about it and i wouldnt care anyway, i have no choice and i am very careful with it, my pipes get bled after ever session and then the torch gets disconnected from the bottle, i even screw the little plastic cap back in the bottle just to be sure it cant leak! As long as your sensible propane tanks really arent that dangerous!
I second that! My neighbours are more intrigued than worried!
Quote from: Spanna on March 19, 2010, 01:35:28 PM
Quote from: Terri on March 18, 2010, 05:24:42 PM
The connections are brass - so they shouldn't really corrode - at least not enough to be a problem even with long exposure. This is why fittings on boats and ships are traditionally made of brass and they are exposed to salt water (very corrosive to metals). If you want to make sure then simply coat them with some WD40 (not the thread) and put a bag or something similar over them.
There are often comments referring to room heaters, patio heaters etc and gas - caravans/boats as well. But the gas that usually used in these appliances and in caravans and boats is butane - not propane. The gas bottles in a caravan are almost always sited outside the caravan in a little box type effort near the towing point. I lived on a boat for many years and had a gas cooker and fridge - both butane not propane. I also have a caravan.
Rubber corrodes. Moisture in brass quick release couplings freezes thus inhibiting the use of such couplings (bearings inside the fittings). Butane and propane are both gas - they burn and explode. Did you really need to nit pick the general gist of my thread or do you just have to be right? I couldn't give a toss about your husbands knowledge of bombs and directional blasts - he isn't the only one who has been there and done it. This is a thread about lampworkers using gas inside not proving points about where you have lived with how many gas canisters you have lived with thus implying superior standard of equipment husbandry. If you also read the thread my point was about care of "canisters" not care of propane. Again my post also backed up your point about them withstanding more heat and pressure....yada yada.
No need to split hairs - we can all do it. And don't patronise. Its not nice.
Actually Spanna, when reading Terri's response, she is simply trying to be helpful and recalling various points that have been raised about this issue historically. The only response on this thread I have a problem with is the tone of yours - which is both aggressive and patronising.
I have to second you on that Billie.
It is very easy for a simple response to come across as something it isn't meant to be Spana. Be careful how you type your replies.
Tis a friendly forum ;)
I try and squeeze as much cheese in as possible, I am happy to share the cheese but NEVER the cheesy puffs.
Quote from: Billie on March 19, 2010, 06:11:38 PM
Actually Spanna, when reading Terri's response, she is simply trying to be helpful and recalling various points that have been raised about this issue historically. The only response on this thread I have a problem with is the tone of yours - which is both aggressive and patronising.
It is all dependent on how the quotes are read and taken, as you have also done herein, thus I am entitled to respond to a post made on an open forum and I have made no mention or notion of aggression, as you have done. But I am back in my box and will comment no more on other peoples responses to my responses to their responses to my responses et al et al et al in fear of being moderated for my opinion and interpretation of what is written. Thank you.
Now I will let everyone get back to discussing the safety issues involved in storing gas canisters in houses....
Quote from: Spanna on March 19, 2010, 06:56:56 PM
Quote from: Billie on March 19, 2010, 06:11:38 PM
Actually Spanna, when reading Terri's response, she is simply trying to be helpful and recalling various points that have been raised about this issue historically. The only response on this thread I have a problem with is the tone of yours - which is both aggressive and patronising.
It is all dependent on how the quotes are read and taken, as you have also done herein, thus I am entitled to respond to a post made on an open forum and I have made no mention or notion of aggression, as you have done. But I am back in my box and will comment no more on other peoples responses to my responses to their responses to my responses et al et al et al in fear of being moderated for my opinion and interpretation of what is written. Thank you.
Now I will let everyone get back to discussing the safety issues involved in storing gas canisters in houses....
If I was moderating I'd have locked the thread when I received a message to my inbox from a concerned member of the forum drawing attention to the response you made to Terri's response. I have merely responded with an opinion as you have responded with yours.
Your response was reported to me as well I'm afraid.
No one is telling you to 'get back into your box' just a friendly reminder that terse responses can be seen as inflammatory.
Bottom line is that Propane is safe, be it inside or outside. 29 years of using it outside and 20 inside. Not an issue. Sorry I have no pictures even if I knew how to put them here. A cage exists to secure cylinders. BOC have good info
HTH
Ian
humm after the racket that has been going on up stairs ALL day to day, the idea of a directional blast was quite appealing up to about and hour ago when they finally put their little one to bed and kicked out their very noisy visitors (who also had children)!!
:-\ I guess I'm not getting a lie in tomorrow >:(
Quote from: Spanna on March 19, 2010, 06:56:56 PM
Quote from: Billie on March 19, 2010, 06:11:38 PM
It is all dependent on how the quotes are read and taken, as you have also done herein, thus I am entitled to respond to a post fear of being moderated for my opinion and interpretation of what is written. Thank you.
Now I will let everyone get back to discussing the safety issues involved in storing gas canisters in houses....
OMG! - without wishing to cause offense to anyone - gulp! I agree with your point Spanna - it is dependant on how things are read and taken and I apologise unreservededly if I came across as nit picking - really I am not. Just trying to help if I can and offer support and advice based on experience. I know no-one is really interested in how I got the experience, I was simply trying to qualify my response with some background. I suppose, with us creative types, we can get a bit passionate at times.
I offer thanks to those who felt moved enough to report Spanna's post to the moderators, it is the sign of a strong community that we look out for each other. But, on a personal level I did not take offense.
What I did find a bit offensive tho, was the remark someone made reference my hubby's input on how an explosion works. Perhaps many forum members are too young to recall N Ireland in the '70s and the bombings here in the UK. Many young military personnel were maimed and killed, just as they are being now (along with children,and other innocent bystanders)........by small devices. The military trained my husband and his comrades to know how to react in order to preserve life where possible in terrible situations. It felt as if someone was 'making light' of a serious point - but heyho, whoever you are - you are just entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
Terri
Oh dear. I thought your original response,Terri, was thorough and informative and I didn't read it as patronising in any way. I also think llewenogg's quip about superheroes was just that - a little lighthearted joke to try to break the atmosphere :) As is so frequent on forums,if we were chatting over a pint in the pub none of this misunderstanding would have happened. :-\
im serious about things on a very occasional basis, having served frontline with the British Army & well as with other more clandestine regiments. I know full well that life is far to short & precious to ever take stuff seriously, There was no offence meant to anyone with my sarcasm, but im welsh from the valleys and its hard not to be sarcastic!
Quote from: llewennog on March 20, 2010, 11:35:55 AM
im serious about things on a very occasional basis, having served frontline with the British Army & well as with other more clandestine regiments. I know full well that life is far to short & precious to ever take stuff seriously, There was no offence meant to anyone with my sarcasm, but im welsh from the valleys and its hard not to be sarcastic!
being from the valleys too i fully get it, i have not served (gammy heart) but i have lost way too many friends and i too know life is too short to
worry about the little things, so with this in mind please play nice, and thank you everybody that replyed to my question.
kind regards
Mark
I have mine in these plastic sheds, the hose goes through a hole drilled into the back, and then into the shed.
They fasten with a padlock, so no one can fiddle with them, and better still - no one knows what's in them ;D
They cost around £50 from Argos.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4454341852_6856ebaeff_m.jpg)
Thanks Sooz, thats what i was looking for, :)
Your welcome :)
All, I have been working in the gas industry for over 20 years now, I used to be a gas process engineer at one of the largest processing plants in the UK and was responsible for much of the safety. Let me straighten out a few facts and point out a few of the risks of storing a propane bottle indoors. You can then decide how willing you are to take those risks and consider the consequences. Please bear in mind that the main fire risk in your house is not your torch or gas bottle, a fire is much more likely to be caused by electrical fault or equipment. The presence bottle in your house does however dramatically change the consequences of a fire. I am sorry if you find any of the following upsetting.
1. Propane does sink, briefly. It is heavier than air but will rapidly diffuse as it warms to ambient temperature.
2. Virtually every mains powered electrical appliance in your house is a source of gas ignition. (They are also potential sources of fire without gas present). Do you turn off everything you can before going to bed?
3. Every propane bottle is different, every one has had multiple previous keepers and could have suffered abuse. All are adequate and tested to hold the gas safely under normal circumstances. In a fire some may survive intact, some may not.
4. Two types of explosion can be caused by gas bottles:
a. The most common is where gas enters a property, mixes with the air and then ignites. The explosion is serious enough to blow an external wall down but will probably not kill you directly. Flying bricks and debris could. The resultant fire, smoke and lack of oxygen probably will kill you.
b. The less likely but much more serious explosion is caused by the bottle itself and is called a BLEVE. Heat on the bottle causes the liquid propane to boil and the pressure in the bottle increases dramatically. The heat also weakens the steel the bottle is made of. When the bottle eventually splits a cloud of propane is instantaneously ejected and mixed with the surrounding air. Almost instantaneously this ignites causing a concussive explosion. A 13 kilo bottle could easily flatten your house and cause structural damage to the neighbors. Calor gas bottles are designed so that the valve mechanism insert is weaker than the bottle, this should mean that the top of the bottle should blow off before the pressure reaches a point where the explosion will very serious. You still get a high pressure jet of propane shooting through your house. Watch the following videos, some of them are of real gas bottles blowing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3PgwSGWvkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3PgwSGWvkw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvThP6zdfMw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvThP6zdfMw)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1505191406742106917# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1505191406742106917#)
This last one explains how it happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl-JgyQA7u0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl-JgyQA7u0)
The US "daisy cutter" fuel-air bomb uses the same principle.
5. If there is a propane bottle inside your house the fire brigade will only enter your house to save life. After saving life, their first priority will be to cool the bottle, even if it means the rest of your house is left to burn down.
6. Domestic gas regulators contain a mechanism to restrict gas flow in the event of a pipe break. The welding regulator used for glass torches may not.
7. Calor gas guidelines do not allow propane to be stored indoors. (Butane can be because it has a much lower pressure and poses a lower risk.)
http://www.calor.co.uk/customer-services/lpg-safety/lpg-cylinder-storage/cylinder-storage-information/
http://www.calor.co.uk/customer-services/lpg-safety/lpg-cylinder-storage/full-and-empty-cylinders/
http://www.calor.co.uk/documents/43/original/code-of-guidance-for-storage-of-cylinders.pdf
8. Just because your house hasn't burnt down and your gas bottle has caused a problem in the last 20 years doesn't mean it wont happen tonight.
Other things you should consider when making your mind up are:
Is your house detached?
If your house is a terrace does it have common loft space?
What type of wall separates your property from the neighbors.
How many babies are in the property, are there enough adults to get them out without return trips.
How many children are in the property.
How many babies and children are in the adjacent properties?
What are your fire escape routes?
Are your bedroom windows locked? Can you get out the window? Will you break bones if you jump?
Does your family know exactly what to do in the event of a fire? Do they know the escape routes? Do you have a plan? Have you ever practiced?
Do you have to pass near the gas cylinder to escape?
Do you have smoke alarms?
Is the smoke alarm positioned along your escape route?
Do you have a fire extinguisher? Is it located near an exit?
Do you leave electrical equipment on over night?
When was your house last re-wired?
When were your electrics last inspected?
Can the fire brigade get a water hose onto your gas bottle from outside the house if there is a fire?
Would you expect a fireman to enter a burning house containing a gas bottle to save the life of your family?
In 2005 there were 57,400 house fires in the UK, 487 people died.
Personally I used to store my bottle outside and bring it into the conservatory only when in use. I have now drilled a hole through the wall and leave the bottle outside. The regulator is protected from rain by a bucket.
P.S. Is your rubber gas hose located in a position where hot glass could fall onto it?
Wow, that made fascinating reading, thanks for sharing.
stuwaudby that is very insightfull and i think your statement should be made a sticky in the faq
thank you for sharing that, i will now be storing outside.
kind regards.
If nothing else it should added to the Wiki !
Thanks stuwaudby
Very informative and sobering - gulp! Thanks for taking the time to type that up, Gasman :)
I'm very glad you find it informative, I would be happy to tidy up to FAQ quality.
Must now remember to find time to do it....
And how many of you are going to stop driving your cars IN CASE THERE IS AN ACCIDENT. We all take risks every day but weigh up the risks versus the benefits. Having survived a serious car crash 20 years ago due to another driver's stupidity, I know how easy it is to be killed by an unforseen event but we take the precautions we think are necessary. If we stopped doing anything where there is a risk, our lives would be unbearable. I take care with my propane bottle as I do in my everyday life but will still continue to keep it inside. A couple of years ago at the age of 60+ I travelled on a zip line over a gorge in NZ, a great experience. Should I have desisted in case I fell?
But Pat, we are not talking about STOPPING doing something, just reducing the risk while doing it.
Surely it's best to reduce the risks in any given circumstance. By your argument we might as well all not bother with any safety precautions whatsoever. I'm sure you wear a seat belt while driving... because it's reducing the risk of you dying IF you have an accident.
In this example we are reducing the risk IF we have a fire, or IF the canister leaks.
With regard to the zip wire, would you have done it if the operator had told you that he hadn't bothered checking the harness, and the wire might be a bit worn, but "don't worry we all take risks".
I'm sorry, but there are some things that are worth doing... and as simple as this is... for me at least, this is one of them.
Thanks stuwaudby, great reading. Lots of things for my 'good practice' list (and a few happy nods for stuff I already do *nods happily*) - always good to have clear input and advice from experts :)
I think this is great info and should definitely be added to the wiki, its up to the individual to choose how they do things but at least they will have all the information to do it.
Thankyou so much for taking the time Stu ;)