Hello
I was in a shop today which sells all sorts of jewellery and they had a cabinet with dichro pendants. I noticed that instead of glueing a bail on the back the artist had slipped in a silver (I presume sterling silver) loop to the top of the pendant, then added a jump ring.
I have just started glueing bails and and the other day, one pinged off (has been glued for about 6 weeks)! Had used the E460 so I'm starting to think along the lines of preventing this from happening and the wire loop looks pretty secure.
I have tried to have a look through this forum to find any tuts or info on how to fit these - but no luck so far. Can any of you share any info on this? Do you know if I can buy these loops already made up? or would I have to make them?
Any info would be much appreciated!
Just make something pretty from wire and "sandwich" it between 2 layers of glass flower
(http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo15/helenbluefairy/rainbowdoodleMhanging.jpg)
Et voila!!!
(I realize this is a hanging, but the principle's the same! ;D)
Thanks,
I take it that you have to use Sterling Silver. Will that withstand the heat of a full fuse?
I think it becomes very brittle - maybe fine silver??
Hi
I have done something similar but used fine silver, as apparently this does not need so much cleaning up. I have not used sterling, so cant tell you if this is true.
Best of luck
Zoe
Sorry......I'm not so clued up on this. Do you mean fine silver as in Metal Clay? I've only been doing this for a few weeks and I'm still at the very newbie stage! and still getting to grips with all the technical terms!
I'd be very pleased if you could tell me exactly what the product is and where I can get it. I could make something up in Art Clay silver, but I do only torch fire at this stage. I only use the kiln for my dichro.
Hi Bluebell
I just use fine silver wire (not PMC). You can get it from Palmers metals or cooksons and it is 99.9% silver and I just bend it into shape with pliers and fuse it between the glass. I dont have any photos to show you but you could basically do whatever shape you want.
Hope this helps
Zoe x
Thanks Zoe
I've just checked Palmers website. Is it this one that you mean?
Code: FS-RW100
Description:
1.0mm diameter Fine Silver Round Wire. 99.9% silver, soft condtion.
Base Price: £3.39 (Exc Vat)
£3.90 (Inc Vat)
I notice that it says" soft condition" Once everything is fired will the loop be strong enough i.e. not bend or mark easily?
Hi Bluebell, thats the one.
You can work harden it by hammering it, but it really depends on what sort of loop you want to do and what effect you want.
Hope this helps, I am sure someone more experienced would be able to offer a more eloquent explaination. :D
Zoe x
Hi,
I've now got the fine silver wire and I'm about to have a go at "sandwiching" the wire in the layers. One thought that crossed my mind though - when I've been using stringer and other bits that I've sandwiched in, and its all nicely glued together before firing - somehow during the firing, the glass cap slips to one side and basically the piece has to go in the bin.
I'm still very much learning as I go along, but I'm thinking that this has got to do with a degree of wobbling of the glass once the glue has burned off. I don't think this will happen so much if the wire loop (having two ends) will help distribute the weight of the glass on top of it.
However I wanted to made little cabs (about 15mm square) and join them all up together with wire loops and jumprings or other beads. Could I have a single wire running through the middle leaving 1 cm overhang at each side for me to make loops? Or will this just create a big wobble and the glass slip to one side? Or is it better to just slip in a loop at either side of each cab?
Thanks!
Hmmm, tbh, I reckon you'd prob find it easiest having a loop each side, at least it would be balanced then x
A fuser/slumper I know rolls a piece of firing paper and then puts a thin sheet on top of the piece shes firing, when they are finished they look like theyve been mandrel wrapped!
At least I presume she does, she wont actually tell me, says its a trade secret PMSL!
I've tried both sterling wire and fine silver wire. Sterling wire can stain and turn black, which the fine silver wire won't do. The fine silver can on the other hand turn white. I'm not sure how to prevent the wire from turning black or white, but I think it has something to do with how long it is in contact with air once it gets warm, or perhaps it depends on what glass colours you use.
Both wires become very soft and can be brittle after heating, so handle the wire with care.
Some glasses also react to silver and turn muddy or do some other unexpected tricks. If you're using Bullseye glass you can find lists online of which colours react with silver.
Quote from: llewennog on November 22, 2009, 04:37:24 PM
A fuser/slumper I know rolls a piece of firing paper and then puts a thin sheet on top of the piece shes firing, when they are finished they look like theyve been mandrel wrapped!
At least I presume she does, she wont actually tell me, says its a trade secret PMSL!
Three simple ways to leave a hole in a fused project:
1. Wrap "thinfire" kiln paper around a round toothpick or piece of copper wire.
2. Heavily kilnwash a round toothpick or piece of copper wire.
3. Leave a thin strip of ceramic paper between the pieces of glass.
If you use a toothpick, it burns off and leaves nothing but white ash that is easily blown out. Kilnwash sometimes needs some work to clean out. Copper wire is easy to remove by putting an end in a vise and pulling on the other end with pliers. Pulling the wire stretches it. As it stretches, it becomes thinner and will easily pull loose.
Ceramic paper is available in 1/8" and 1/16" thick. Cut a square strip 1/16" or 1/8" square and set it between the pieces to be fused. After firing, it will easily push out and leave a perfectly square and perfectly clean hole. A 1/8" square holes is the most popular because it will accommodate a cord or even relatively large chains. Most artisans sell them either without cord or chain (or with a very inexpensive display ribbon) because most all customers already own a variety of chains then can use.
A caution ...... creating holes this way often creates spikes along the edge of the top glass where it contacts whatever was used to create the hole. Firing about 10 degrees lower then usual and about 10 minutes longer. Alternatively, expect to spend a few seconds on each hole with a dremel to remove spikes. Nothing is needed inside the hole. It always comes out perfect.
FWIW, we produce a huge volume (thousands) of cabochons with the ceramic paper method for sale to artisans that use them to make jewelry. This method works so efficiently (done only in otherwise unused kiln space) we can sell dichroic cabs for as little as $2. each.
Just a thought, I thought fine silver wouldn't work harden?
I don't know anything about fusing, but I thought if it seems too soft, maybe you could make it into wrapped loops before use and also, you could try hammering the part that is sandwiched under the glass a bit flatter, so that the top layer of glass isn't sitting on a rounded piece of wire? Just a thought as I said, it may not be any good for you..
I wonderd where all the cheap cabachons came from...doesnt help us who try to make a living from it when others mass produce so cheaply. But then we allllllll know about that kind of thing...just an observation.....
Quote from: turnedlight on November 23, 2009, 05:41:03 PM
Just a thought, I thought fine silver wouldn't work harden?
I don't know anything about fusing, but I thought if it seems too soft, maybe you could make it into wrapped loops before use and also, you could try hammering the part that is sandwiched under the glass a bit flatter, so that the top layer of glass isn't sitting on a rounded piece of wire? Just a thought as I said, it may not be any good for you..
Kathryn, you read my mind! I was pondering that (about the flattening of the wire so you don't get wobbly glass cap), but I know nothing about silver working at all.
I find the wire makes the pendants look a bit cheaper (no offense) I just feel that the aanraku bails are fab or holes in the glass itself- much neater to look at than a bit of wire.
Quote from: chocolateteapot on November 23, 2009, 06:49:40 PM
I wonderd where all the cheap cabachons came from...doesnt help us who try to make a living from it when others mass produce so cheaply. But then we allllllll know about that kind of thing...just an observation.....
There's no way of knowing what the ratio is, but you can be sure that a good amount of the low priced cabs being sold that glass artisans complain about being cheapo imports is instead locally made by artisans doing nothing more complicated then running an efficient production system. Allowing for labour at $30/hr, the total labour and materials cost on the $2 cabs is $1. Selling something for double the cost is by anyone's standards an excellent profit margin. Anybody can do it if you just stop making one at a time. The jewelry makers that buy those cabs are making a very good living.
For all that aspire to sell their work and have difficult competing with imports, I suggest you ask:
Is the problem that the artisans in other countries are willing to work too cheap
or, is the problem that artisans in this country expect too much?
Are those artisans, in any country, that can sell cheaper doing it by working cheap,
or, are those artisans working more efficiently?This isn't fine art. Not much is easier. A single beginner class is all that's needed to learn most everything you will ever need to know about making glass cabochons. Cut a piece of dichroic (or any glass), place a piece of clear on top, and cook in the kiln. Bob's your uncle. Here's a downloadable production pattern that will allow you to get your per cab cutting time down to a few seconds each:
http://www.glasscampus.com/patterns/Jewelry%20Cabochons.pdf
Cabochons really aren't worth more than a few dollars each. It's unrealistic to expect to make a living selling glass cabs, but it is a terrific supplement to income from other work. The cabs we sell wholesale for $2 each regularly sell at street markets for $10.00. For anybody that isn't satisfied with selling retail for 5 times the wholesale cost, probably the only better alternative is dealing drugs.
Quote from: Glamglass on November 23, 2009, 07:32:46 PM
I find the wire makes the pendants look a bit cheaper (no offense) I just feel that the aanraku bails are fab or holes in the glass itself- much neater to look at than a bit of wire.
The problem with using glued on bails is there exists no glue that can be relied on to hold. Failures are so common that many buyers (especially the knowledgeable retailers) now refuse to even consider anything that is glued on. It's more commonly thought that glued on bails are indicative of amateur work while professionals are more likely chose mechanical attachments. Drilled holes with pinch bails, or wire wrapped are viewed as higher standard workmanship.
Many retailers feel the same about glued on bails. It indicates a cheaper product.
Hi folks
Thanks for all the replies - you learn soooooo much on here - it's great!
Well I had a go last night and slipped in some fine silver wire. Have to say it was really fiddly and I got glue everywhere! I only did a couple of test pieces first - although I cut a batch but wanted to see how they turned out first.
When they came out of the kiln the loops were a very dull grey, so I cleaned them up as best I could with a wire brush, and silver polish and they're ok (I think).
Perhaps I could dip them into some solution and they would return to being bright and shiny?????
Anyway, here's the photos, one with a jump ring and chain and the other I intend to join up with several others with jump rings and/or other spacer beads on a bracelet.
(http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/BluebellDesigns/WireLoop1.jpg)
(http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/BluebellDesigns/WireLoop2.jpg)
What I do like about this idea of inserting loops, is that I can create a pendant within a day, whereas I'm not comfortable giving anything away which has been glued less than seven days.
Well done lovey that great. I have made some bits with siver wire recently too. Now the only prob i have is the jump ring thing. I'm not keen on soldering my jump rings shut and i dont trust open ones. Do you think we should try and pop a closed jump ring on the loop b4 firing or do u think thats a bit much trouble ( fine silver) Also have you..or anyone considered fine silver bails put in the glass and fired that way? I know they would probably be expensive. I dont really like the look of a jump ring on the wire...do you? just thinking of other things to do..different positon of silver wire so not need a jump ring somehow...if i get something good going will let u know...just finding the time at the mo thoo...
tracy x
Dennis Brady. You have hit the nail on the head, in both your posts.
I could make a living on just selling cabs, but I would have to eat beans on toast for the rest of my life and the dog and rats would not get fed their usual high quality food.
I just grin and put up with it now. Looking at the cheap imports. It makes me want to make better things.
Those cabs looks good esp the second one ;D
I'm not too keen on the jump ring thing either! I recently bought a solder syringe, so may try that, but the jump rings do need a fair bit of cleaning up afterwards. I'll probably do some wire wrapped loops, attaching them individually as it's the only method (apart from soldering) that I'd be totally comfortable with. Bit of a fiddle I know, but think it's worth trying.
As for the open jump ring, I think as long as the cab is not too big/heavy (the one in the photo with the chain is about 25mm) it should be ok. I've also used a 5mm heavy jump ring, so it will need a fair bit of tugging before it opens in error.
I think in time I'll persevere with the soldering though!
I really don't want to be putting a closed jump ring into the kiln. Never thought about using fine silver bails - prob because of the cost.
Just trying to imagine another option and all I can think of at the moment is to somehow create a bail (like the traditional shape) out of fine silver and slip that under the dichro?????
Will keep thinking.......
Cheers
Linda
QuoteLooking at the cheap imports. It makes me want to make better things.
While some artisans whine and snivel about being unable to compete against imports, others have treated the competition as an incentive to do better work. In many ways, the inflow of cheap imports is the best thing that could happen to the development of glass arts. Instead of relying on being able to keep making same old same old work, artisans are now forced to innovate and invent. Adapt or die!
A quote I like to use in my business classes is:
The only time you get to coast is when you're going downhill.Anyone that has visited juried fine arts shows recently has seen many examples of how artisans have reached deep into their creative talents and produced some really outstanding work. Those that expected to keep making the same stuff they always made usually can't even get juried in let alone find customers for their work. There are 3 ways to increase competitive ability:
1. Make the same as others but sell it cheaper then others.
2. Provide a better quality product then others.
3. Make something different than others make.
If you aspire to making a living (even a part time one) from your work, the third option is the only realistic one. The Asians will always beat you at the first option, and hobbyists that don't care how much labour time is involved will always undercut you on the second option. If you expect a customer to buy your work instead of that of some other artisan, make something no other artisan makes.
Most pro artisans know this and are moving steadily to expand their personal skills and acquire new equipment to be able to create new products. The fastest growing part of the glass arts is cross-pollination of skills with artisans in one discipline working to learn skills in other disciplines. The successful artisans will be those that have acquired the skills in stained glass, warm glass, hot glass, and sand blasting that allow them to incorporate all those disciplines together in new ways.
Glass cabochons are a fine project to teach beginners, but if you expect to generate an income selling them, find some creative way to make them different then those thousands of other artisans make.
Phew I feel like I'm in a lecture now.. I don't want to be inflammatory but I do feel you could reign in your 'lectures' a little sometimes? It makes it sound like you think we're all daft as a brush and hadn't already thought of these things.. the point of the post was simply for practical advice, after all! :) :-*
Quote from: turnedlight on November 24, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
Phew I feel like I'm in a lecture now.. I don't want to be inflammatory but I do feel you could reign in your 'lectures' a little sometimes? It makes it sound like you think we're all daft as a brush and hadn't already thought of these things.. the point of the post was simply for practical advice, after all! :) :-*
I expect some have heard such comments before and some haven't. I know from many years teaching business to artists and artisans that most have either not heard them or have chosen to believe such advice doesn't apply to them because their work is exempt from such economic influences. If you've heard it all before, why not just ignore those comments and leave them for those that haven't heard them? You might not be assisted by such comments but I expect many others will be. Do you feel you have the right to decide what advice should be offered?
Here here Kathryn...xxxxx
Quote from: chocolateteapot on November 24, 2009, 11:30:08 PM
Here here Kathryn...xxxxx
Same here ...enough to devitrify your glass before firing it!!! ;)
i think a wire wrapped bail will be lovely and finish it off a treat...its not as fiddley as gluing anyway and will look fab. Just been looking for my bead on a wire book for inspiration to do something my self! I did make a cab where the wire is between 3 sheets of glass so the loop will take the chain without a bail,you know, but i dont know if i like it or not..its a an idea. But i think what u have suggested is the best.
good luck...xx
Here it is!!!!
Thank you Dennis for the tip of the wire through the cab. I fused this cab last night with a piece of fine silver wire wrapped in ThinFire sandwiched in between. Only did one (in with everything else) as I wanted to see how it would turn out. There was a bit of a wobble going on so I stuck tiny pieces of clear glass on the 4 corners, but in hindsight should have just run thin strips down each side of the wire for the entire length of the cab as it has turned out a bit monkeynut shaped as the ends were built up to 8mm.
The wire pulled out no problem and after a quick wash and spray down the centre, it was perfect!
So this morning I had a rummage in my beads and put this together with what I had. I have used aqua coloured copper wire to match some of the colour in the cab and some co-ordinating beads.
I'm reeeeaaalllly happy with how this technique has turned out - so it's just practice, practice practice now.
Thanks again!!!!!!!
(http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/BluebellDesigns/Cab2.jpg)
Thats a look i have never seen b4, well done, i thought he meant horizontal which i do anyway but i dont always like the funny shape they come out. that looks great, well done..xxxx
That looks great! How much thinfire paper did you use?
I guess it could work with a steel pin (a thin mandrel perhaps) dipped in bead release too?
Quote from: noora on November 26, 2009, 01:32:13 PM
That looks great! How much thinfire paper did you use?
I guess it could work with a steel pin (a thin mandrel perhaps) dipped in bead release too?
It will work with a mandrel but you should expect to lose some cabs because some will break when you remove the mandrel. The longer the bead, the greater the ratio of loss. A piece of copper wire is preferable because when you pull on it, it stretches and becomes thinner - thus releasing easily. Problem with any method that relies on bead release or kiln wash is cleaning out residue from the hole. That's why ceramic fibre paper is the more popular choice. It leaves a perfectly clean hole.
QuoteThere was a bit of a wobble going on so I stuck tiny pieces of clear glass on the 4 corners, but in hindsight should have just run thin strips down each side of the wire for the entire length of the cab as it has turned out a bit monkeynut shaped as the ends were built up to 8mm.
You might also try a slightly longer hold at full fuse temp to reduce the dogbone effect.
Thanks Dennis! I'll have to try it out :)
Just to add.....
Warm Glass sell Fibre Rope (look under Studio Supplies/Studio Essentials) which has the same effect as rolled up thinfire. However, you can unwind it to get very thin pieces if you just need a very small hole for fishing line (eg for Christmas tree ornaments). It keeps its integrity in firing and pulls out very easily, though I have noticed some of the needling effect around the ends of the hole as mentioned above, but that's easily removed afterwards.
Flip
I actually just got a delivery from Warm Glass that included some fibre rope :) I have a few beads in the kiln right now, but once they're done I'll make some "cabs with holes" and try out the different options.