I know that this message will probably be preaching to the converted but on the off chance that it reaches even one person who is in the same frame of mind as I was I thought it was worth it.
Trust me, I was certainly in two minds about posting as I'm embarressed about my stupidity and lack of common sense.
Yesterday while doing some work with boro I forgot to open the door to my studio and I don't have any other ventilation.
Normally I work an hour at the most but I was getting on so well with implosions that I was at the torch for a few hours.
Needless to say, I was effected quite badly by the gases, spent the afternoon in bed, and can hardly walk/talk today.
On the off chance that your thinking about it please don't give me any sympathy, I certainly don't deserve it. It was my own fault, knowing full well the dangers of not having ventilation plus I have 2 very good friends, trained nurses, who have told me over and over the dangers but I never really associated it with me.
I have always put ventilation off, like a child, preferring to spend the money on glass etc.
Once your in that mind set, its actually quite hard to shake, I've worked with 'basic' ventilation (ie an open door) since I started and I've never really had any major issues, this made me think that all the talk was overrated and I would be fine.
Let me tell you now, after actually experiencing it, its not fine.
It started with feeling a little hazy, which I put down to tiredness, then I started getting a slight headache (obviously becasue I was concentrating too hard) , then there was a tiny tickle in my throat...
See what I mean: "a little hazy", "a slight headache", "a tiny tickle".... these things don't jump out at you while your working, they creep up and its easy to explain them away.
By the time it flicked through my head that maybe something wasn't quite right I'd finished what I was doing and needed to be at the school for a meeting. So I turned everything off and at that moment realised that the door was shut... duh! It still didn't strike me just how badly I had been effected and thought nothing more of it.
On the walk to the school I did feel a little strange and my eyes were kind of swimming in and out of focus. It settled down quite quickly and I just assumed it was because I'd gone from a rather dark room into the bright daylight.
Throughout the meeting my throat got worse and I felt really sluggish like I was coming down with something (yes I'm slow but it was only about now that it really dawned on me something wasn't quite right)
Peter was home when I got back and we popped into town, we were supposed to be having lunch but after a little while Peter decided he needed to take me home and I spent the rest of the day in bed. My throat felt like sandpaper, my head banged and my limbs felt like I had the flu. Breathing wasn't impossible but certainly a little laborious.
Trust me when I say its not a situation you want to find yourself in.
I'm guessing that these symptoms were just the start and the fact that they didn't really get going until quite a while later has certainly scared me. As I said at the start I was working with boro which has more metals and vapours plus the flame I was using was much larger which certainly contributed to the effects, but saying that, my torch is now completely off limits until proper ventilation is sorted out. That includes soft glass, boro and 5 minute stringer pulling sessions.
Maybe I'm going over the top but I certainly don't want to feel anything like I did yesterday.
I've had another look at the side effects of not working with ventilation and they include all the symptoms I had yesterday plus a whole host of others which a week ago woud have seemed farfetched to me but not so anymore.
I really hope my message doesn't come across as scaremongering as I do know that many people get along pretty well with a open window and door, but it certainly isn't for me anymore. I would say that I probably had the worst set of circumstances ie: an enclosed space, long period of time, working with boro and a larger flame but I won't be chancing it now even without those.
So in conclusion, like I said at the beginning, I'm sure 99% of you reading this are thinking "I knew all that already" or "silly girl, what did you expect" but for that 1% of you that might be thinking "I don't need ventilation, it won't happen to me" I implore you to think again as that is exactly what I would have thought 2 days ago and now I wouldn't wish the side effects on anyone!
Thanks for posting this Stacy - it has reinforced what I have been thinking about my new shedio - that I do actually need two externally vented hooded extractors for teaching. At the moment I have a standard bathroom extractor in my studio and open the door but I know it is not really enough and do advise my students to do as I say and not as I do! Thank goodness this is only a short term issue for me now.
I am so sorry to hear how poorly it has made you feel - but as you say, a salutory lesson for all of us. If one person died from this, I think we would find a whole load of regulation heaped on us, so it makes sense for everyone to take the utmost care.
I am surprised if you don't have a carbon monoxide alarm? Or did it not pick up the problem?
Kazx
That does sound awful, thanks for posting, I've not long started and I have 2 open windows, I think it's pretty good, but I have been thinking I would be better with proper ventilation, so I will nowlook into that for sure. It is strange thought that things like glass etc do take priority and the desire to just get started seems to be something that has come up on the forum regularly, then making things better as we go along.
Do hope you feel better now and warning definitely taken on board!
I do remember noticing when I used to use the hot head with just a window open as ventalation getting the sore throat and headache, although never too bad. I did get some ventalation in when I moved to a big torch and boro - reading the health and safety warnings on Glass Alchemy's page was enough to frighten me into taking ventalation more seriously.
However after reading your post I am going to move up 'get better ventaliation' to more of a priority now.
Hope you get well soon!!!!!!!
I know exactly how you felt. Not as bad as you but I started to get symptoms a while ago, although both door and window were open. 'She who must be obeyed' had also complained about fumes. I'd been putting off the expense of proper ventilation. That same day I ordered an Air Force extractor fan. It is so, so important to put in an effective system.
Frederick
Aw you poor thing! it is scary when you think that you could of passed out too.
I had an episode of this yesterday too. Yet I had windows behind me open. Fan going at 100mph yet still I got sandpaper throat and headache.
I put it down to leaning too far forward and sucking up the fumes before the vent sucked it away. I was working with silver glass all day too :( I'm now going to put in a glass barrier on my barley box to enclose the fumes more and stop me leaning forward.
Lesson learnt, wipe brow, more glass work.
Denise
I'm really glad my message has been taken in the way it was intended. I was really nervous I would be flames for not having the correct ventilation in the first place or for scaring people!!
What I found really strange was I didn't really smell anything while I was working but when I got back from the meeting at the school it hit me as soon as I walked through the door.
I'm better today thank you. My headache has gone, my body just feels like I slept badly but my throat is still very sore. It's a nice reminder!!
I experimented a bit with the height of the canopy above the flame. I found that lowering the canopy increased the efficiency of extraction. With the height I now have mine at ALL fumes are extracted.
Also do look at the Progrow website. There was quite a lot of discussion on this forum back in August.
Frederick
Thanks for posting this Stacy.
I, like many I suspect, am well aware of the need for proper ventilation but have put it off. It will now be top of my list.
Hope you fully recover quickly.
Stacy, I hope you feel lots better :)
You are right, ventilation is really important.
Thank you Stacy, for posting your message
I haven't been beading long and have been thinking about a ventilation system for a while but also thought an open door and window would be okay so now I will get on and sort my ventilation out sorry to hear you have been feeling so bad and hope you are on the mend
Best wishes Liz x
I put off ventilation for a long time thinking it would be too complicated to install and just used the open door and window :o
If I'd known how easy it was to rig up something I would have done it sooner. My arrangement is still temporary until my garage gets done up but for those of you putting it off all you need is one of the hydroponics fans, a couple of lengths of ducting and some strong tape/duct tape. I also got a reducer to clamp to my table. I'll try and take photos if anyone needs it.
When I'm ready to light the torch I just put the hose out of the window and make sure the end is a good distance away from the take up air to prevent the fumes just coming back in.
Hi Dinah46
I'm not sure what kind of ventilation stuff is needed so any help would be great
Thanks
Liz
If we can't give you any sympathy, can we give you a slap around the face with a wet fish ???
Thanks for posting. When you're trying to save money, it's easy to do the "out of sight, out of mind" thing with ventilation and hope for the best. You've given yourself, and Peter no doubt, a real scare. I hope you're back in your studio quickly, with the correct ventilation. I'm sure Sam will be doing the calculations for what you need.
Sending you a kick up the jacksy and a big sloppy :-*
Quote from: Lizzie on October 02, 2009, 01:00:18 PM
Hi Dinah46
I'm not sure what kind of ventilation stuff is needed so any help would be great
OK, bare in mind that I am not recommending this set up - just trying to point out that a ventilation system doesn't have to be complicated to start with. This is a temporary measure until my garage gets done up (oh to win the lottery :D)
This shows the very 'heath robinson' features of my system, lots of tape ::) However, it works. The reducer is clamped behind the torch to draw the fumes away from my face. The hose is taped to the fan on the floor.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/dinah46/website%20photos/ventilation_1.jpg?t=1254485547)
This is an overhead view of the fan with the hose taped to it. The grey hose then gets put out of the window when I use the torch.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/dinah46/website%20photos/ventilation_2.jpg?t=1254485796)
With hindsight, I would have bought a more compact fan but at the time did not know what I was looking for :)
Edited to apologise for hijacking your thread Stacy, hope you're feeling better now
Quote from: Billie on October 02, 2009, 01:05:44 PM
If we can't give you any sympathy, can we give you a slap around the face with a wet fish ???
Of course!!! LOL!! Might wake me up a bit!!
Quote from: Billie on October 02, 2009, 01:05:44 PM
I'm sure Sam will be doing the calculations for what you need.
I'm actually hiding from her as she's going to give me a lecture and the whole "I did tell you" speech as she's the nursey friend who I should have listened to ages and ages ago and who I should never contradict and is always right!!!
(just incase she is reading this) Gotta Love Her!
Quote from: Stacy on October 02, 2009, 01:21:41 PMQuote from: Billie on October 02, 2009, 01:05:44 PM
I'm sure Sam will be doing the calculations for what you need.
I'm actually hiding from her as she's going to give me a lecture and the whole "I did tell you" speech as she's the nursey friend who I should have listened to ages and ages ago and who I should never contradict and is always right!!! (just incase she is reading this) Gotta Love Her!
And she's blooming scary when riled. You'd better hope she doesn't turn up armed with her brass pokey things, just a tape measure and calculator :D :D :D
In my caravan - BD1- I have a cooker hood and then open my windows, door & roof vent.
A few weeks ago I didn't have the door or window open, and my throat was terrible, and only had the extractor on, and I am thinking this isn't good enough now.
Thanks for the warning, and I hope you are feeling much better now :)
Thanks for the reminder about ventilation. I think it is a good thing that it regularly gets brought up as we all tend to let things slide. I have just put in a temporary extractor (well DH fitted it really :)) but it has made a huge difference already. I used to only torch for an hour or so as I'd get a bit dizzy but now I can do longer.
When I finally get my 'proper' studio home it will be my priority as I do not want long term health effects from years of inhaling various metals.
Thanks again...
Quote from: dinah46 on October 02, 2009, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 02, 2009, 01:00:18 PM
Hi Dinah46
I'm not sure what kind of ventilation stuff is needed so any help would be great
OK, bare in mind that I am not recommending this set up - just trying to point out that a ventilation system doesn't have to be complicated to start with. This is a temporary measure until my garage gets done up (oh to win the lottery :D)
This shows the very 'heath robinson' features of my system, lots of tape ::) However, it works. The reducer is clamped behind the torch to draw the fumes away from my face. The hose is taped to the fan on the floor.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/dinah46/website%20photos/ventilation_1.jpg?t=1254485547)
This is an overhead view of the fan with the hose taped to it. The grey hose then gets put out of the window when I use the torch.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/dinah46/website%20photos/ventilation_2.jpg?t=1254485796)
With hindsight, I would have bought a more compact fan but at the time did not know what I was looking for :)
Edited to apologise for hijacking your thread Stacy, hope you're feeling better now
Thank you for your help not sure if I am sending this right there's a lot to this ventilation stuff
Liz x
OMG! I get headaches and lots of sore throats, occasional aching limbs and blurred vision, I just have the shed door open. Eeek! I need to get me some ventilation, I was thinking cooker extractor, but now I'm, not so sure.
Sorry to sound thick but what is a "reducer" ? ???
Quote from: Mand on October 02, 2009, 03:44:56 PM
OMG! I get headaches and lots of sore throats, occasional aching limbs and blurred vision, I just have the shed door open. Eeek! I need to get me some ventilation, I was thinking cooker extractor, but now I'm, not so sure.
Sorry to sound thick but what is a "reducer" ? ???
It's that metal thing shaped like a funnel that I've clamped to the table. They are sold for reducing the diameter on the hose but I thought it made a good funnel to catch a bigger area if you see what I mean ??? Reducer is the name to search ebay with :D
Quote from: Stacy on October 02, 2009, 01:21:41 PM
Quote from: Billie on October 02, 2009, 01:05:44 PM
If we can't give you any sympathy, can we give you a slap around the face with a wet fish ???
Of course!!! LOL!! Might wake me up a bit!!
Quote from: Billie on October 02, 2009, 01:05:44 PM
I'm sure Sam will be doing the calculations for what you need.
I'm actually hiding from her as she's going to give me a lecture and the whole "I did tell you" speech as she's the nursey friend who I should have listened to ages and ages ago and who I should never contradict and is always right!!! (just incase she is reading this) Gotta Love Her!
Told you so.... :P Daft muppet! Stick to the jewellery for now eh? ;)
A very worthwhile post, thank you - I have to say you have definately brought it home to me, I will be looking at some ventilation now!
Gail xx
P.S It's not sympathy just concern ;) hope you are feeling better!!
Thank you for posting this Stacy - you've certainly given me a lot to think about that I was trying to pretend wasn't a problem. Best wishes.
Cerri
I have recently been looking into this and it all seems available on ebay. Reading your post diane what size fan and hose you would recommend, i was thinking 4" to 6" is that what you think? :)
Quote from: glasslisa on October 02, 2009, 07:05:12 PM
I have recently been looking into this and it all seems available on ebay. Reading your post diane what size fan and hose you would recommend, i was thinking 4" to 6" is that what you think? :)
As I'm venting quite a large space I chose the 200mm, approx 8", but I can't remember what cubic metre it shifts. There's a post by beadysam where she put some calculations
http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4852.msg88455#msg88455
Thanks Dianne, have to study that a bit ??? ??? ??? I was wondering about having the duct in front of the flame how is that possible given the flame etc? Do you have it set far back, to the side or under the flame.....if in front of the flame how wide is your worktop? So sorry for all the questions but I'm getting my workshop done as we speak and i don't want to find i've made the space too narrow for the duct! I really, appreciate the advice :) :)
I too have forgotten to switch ventilation on and the first symptom I get is a dry sore throat. I usually pop out and take a few deep breaths of fresh air before returning having turned the ventilation on and wafted the shed door half a dozen times.
Just to add further to the talk.
Ventilation is the MOST important thing. I would not work with glass without it because.
A) Your lungs are very fragile and they do not repair fully if damaged
and
B) If you pass out and your on your own, well thats obvious one. flame = fire = Death. Simples.
Just opening a door or window does not cut it, if people still not heed the advice that is on the net and preached all the time. Well, say no more. We need to thin out the dumb any way. (Joke!)
Denise.
Its a very heathly thing to worry about and people should not be told off for telling people about the risks. ( I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here either, just saying what I feel )
I agree, this brings it home to all lampworkers, we sometimes neglect ourselves and our safety because we can't wait to get started on making beadies ;D ;D
My old shed didnt have anything, I used to prop windows open etc...when DH built proper shedio ;) he fitted a powerful kitchen extractor fan just above my workspace....the difference is amazing, you can see the torch flame bend toward the fan, which I assume is good, and the constant sore throat/dry mouth have gone. I drink lots of water while I torch too, always good to stay hydrated.
I am so pleased that you are feeling better, and you were right to raise this matter.
Mandyxxx
Sorry to be dim but..
what's a reducer? and by 'hydroponic fan' do you mean one of those used in hyroponic plant production units?
Would a kitchen extractor fan do the job?
I am currently in a shed with an open window. I mostly have to close the outside door because any wind makes a draught for the flame, and anyway as winter draws in it will be too cold (I don't have any heating either.)
It is one of those things I have been considering but not got round to, but will do after reading this lot.
J.
I am no expert, but I have a big extractor hood over my worktable, and it's fine. It has been sited quite low, but seems to catch everything, done all the smoke tests, and its vented to outside, the flame drags toward it which makes me think it's absolutely fine, also my carbon mono detector hasn't detected anything!
So I would say a decent kitchen extractor is ok :)
Mandyx
Netty -I wondered the same.... :)
Quote from: dinah46 on October 02, 2009, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: nettyP on October 03, 2009, 06:53:10 PM
Sorry to be dim but..
what's a reducer? and by 'hydroponic fan' do you mean one of those used in hyroponic plant production units? date=1254494696]
Sorry to sound thick but what is a "reducer" ? ???
It's that metal thing shaped like a funnel that I've clamped to the table. They are sold for reducing the diameter on the hose but I thought it made a good funnel to catch a bigger area if you see what I mean ??? Reducer is the name to search ebay with :D
I don't have any ventilation. ???
Well I have it ready to be installed, DH just hasn't got round to it yet. He has to drill a hole in the wall, which should be done in the next couple of weeks. However in the meantime I have nearly always said no to using my torch. If on occasion I have used it, it's been for an hour max. Can't remember the last time I did light it it's been so long. :(
Thank you for giving us a kick up the backside and glad your feeling better Stacy. :-*