Just what I needed, gone to inspect my VERY full kiln this morning and it says 'FAIL'. Will I have to batch anneal them all now?
And what might have caused it?
It can't have been a power failiure because I have a breaker on the socket which trips if the power supply trips or is switched off and you have to press the reset button for it to go back on ???
K x
which kiln/controller?..
It's an SC2, the controller is part of it, sorry I can't be more specific, gotta do the school run now.
K
i was gonna say power failure but you have eliminated that. Have you checked the manual that might give a hint! Otherwise I don't know. Q maybe able to shed light or Lee from kilncare
Hope you sort it. I would batch anneal just to be sure! What a pain in the ass!!!
Here you go mate, straight from the SC2 manual
FAIL / Thermocouple Failure
The thermocouple, or temperature sensor, failed during firing. Causes:
Defective thermocouple or disconnected/loose wires
Defective controller
Electrical noise
Thermocouple Paperclip Test
Check the thermocouple wire connections. (See your kiln instruction manual.) If connections are tight, perform this test:
UNPLUG the kiln or disconnect the power.
Remove the controller.
Remove the two thermocouple wires from the back of the controller.
Cut a thin paperclip in half.
Insert a U-shaped paperclip piece, or other piece of thin wire, where you removed the thermocouple wires.
Plug in the kiln.
If the controller displays room temperature, replace the thermocouple.
If it shows FAIL, return the controller for repair or replacement.
A little crude but it will do the job.
MAKE SURE you unplug the kiln before removing the control and re-fit the controller after you have put the clip in before turning back on.
Many Thanks Lee,
Think I'll leave that one to the DH, I'm obviously having a little RTFM trouble ;D
cool - let us know how you get on?... ;D ;D
Hi,
Hubby has just got up after a night shift and has had a look at the kiln, but after switching it on just to see what was going on it is now displaying room temp. Could it be ok now, or should I still get him to test it?
Well yes and no, it could now work fine forever, but my guess would be that you have a loose thermocouple connection maybe.
You may find that it works fine, but once it has shown FAIL it has the capability of showing it again at anytime, which will shut the kiln off.
Might be a good idea to whizz the front off and just check that the thermocouple connections arenice and tight on the back of the controller.
It gives you a photo in your instruction book under the FAIL diagnosis section, I think it was page 11 but not sure on that.
OK I'll check it anyway, thanks so much.
Just thought I'd update this.
I checked the connections, they were push button ones, and they were VERY secure, I did the paperclip test anyway, and it read 'FAIL'. I've been in touch directly with Paragon, and I'm not sure which direction we're heading in, but seem to be answering endless questions at the moment.
I've tried a different programme as suggested by Paragon, ramping up to 500c in two segments of full to 450c and then 10c/hr up to 500, that's just over a 5 hour ramp BTW, longer than a batch anneal!! Anyway it still failed 1.5 hours in to the garaging hold segment.
During other test runs it has also displayed the HTDE error, despite running at 503c at the time, with a target temp of 500c, the HTDE message is only supposed to display if the kiln has overshot the target temp by something like 57c.
On one occasion it overshot the target temp by over 150c without displaying the HTDE warning.
The manual (which has become regular bedtime reading) suggests a replecement controller given the paperclip test results, I'm waiting for Paragon to get back to me.
I've got jugs of beads sitting around waiting to be annealed, I've a jewellery party on Tuesday, two more within a fortnight of that, and two christmas fairs, I'm pretty hacked off to say the least!!
It does look like it may be the controller, I can only comment for our controllers here, but, in general, once the paper clip is inserted (or a similar method), provided that it is well inserted, it links out all external influences. Any error message on the controller is then coming from within itself.
As I say, that is a general statement and as this is now in the hands of the manufacturer it should be sorted pretty quickly.
Actually that's quite reassuring Lee, I didn't really understand what the paperclip test was achieving, but it makes sense now. Thanks
I am here to serve ;)
Quote from: sublimekate on October 28, 2008, 04:32:15 PM
Just thought I'd update this.
I checked the connections, they were push button ones, and they were VERY secure, I did the paperclip test anyway, and it read 'FAIL'. I've been in touch directly with Paragon, and I'm not sure which direction we're heading in, but seem to be answering endless questions at the moment.
I've tried a different programme as suggested by Paragon, ramping up to 500c in two segments of full to 450c and then 10c/hr up to 500, that's just over a 5 hour ramp BTW, longer than a batch anneal!! Anyway it still failed 1.5 hours in to the garaging hold segment.
During other test runs it has also displayed the HTDE error, despite running at 503c at the time, with a target temp of 500c, the HTDE message is only supposed to display if the kiln has overshot the target temp by something like 57c.
On one occasion it overshot the target temp by over 150c without displaying the HTDE warning.
The manual (which has become regular bedtime reading) suggests a replecement controller given the paperclip test results, I'm waiting for Paragon to get back to me.
I've got jugs of beads sitting around waiting to be annealed, I've a jewellery party on Tuesday, two more within a fortnight of that, and two christmas fairs, I'm pretty hacked off to say the least!!
Kate - send the beads to me for batch annealing if you like.
Kaz
Thanks Kaz, I might have to take you up on that, I had already considered who I was going to start tapping up ;D
Basically if the kiln isn't fixed by Thursday I need a back-up plan, because any later than that would be leaving it too late to send the beads to someone else and get them back in time.
I'm holding out hope that they tell Martin to send me the parts, or agree to get them out to me FAST, it's a really kind offer, and there's a good chance I'll be in touch.
Many Thanks Kaz ;D
Kate xxxxx
Well, here I am again, and it's bad news.
My new controller arrived yesterday but the kiln failed again on the first run, two hours in to the hold segment on a garaging schedule.
Then it failed again on a batch anneal, not sure when but I checked it before I went to bed and it had 19mins left to run on the hold at 520c, but I was welcomed with the familiar 'FAIL' message this morning.
I'm going to have to cancel the party I had arranged for Tuesday because I've had this problem for over two weeks now and hence no beads that I can say for certain are annealed.
I wish I'd sent the beads to Kaz, but I was so hopeful when I managed to get the controller sent out from Robin on special delivery.
Back to the drawing board, I guess it's a thermocouple issue now, or is it??!!??
try reaching orton at paragon - he is a genie at fixing these things.. we have one kiln playing up with either a faulty thermocouple or (more likely) a faulty relay.. they don't go wrong very often - in fact this is our first hardware failure but he is very good at fault finding... he can be a little difficult to reach though..
I'll let you know how I go on.
Kate if you want to send some this week I can anneal and drop off to you next week?
What a shame you have had to cancel the party - hope you can re-arrange for nearer Christmas when people may be in more of a spending mood anyway!
Kaz
The lady was lovely, she's had lots of beads from me already and she's going to re-book when I'm sorted out, it was a relief to come clean with her, stress levels are manageable again :)
I have a learning point to share, I won't book a show or a party until I have have the stock, or have a back-up plan in place in advance ;)
Got an email from Paragon this afternoon as follows:
Kate,
I still believe this has to do with ramp rates up or down.
I need you to fire the kiln full up to 1037C.... and let it shut off....
You need to keep a record of the temperature rise and fall from start to lower than your normal last target temperature you usually use.
It is possible that the kiln could not keep your ramp rate coming down all the way to your target.
Just because we enter a rate that does not mean the kiln can keep up going up or down.
Let me know the result.
Translations welcome!
I know I'm being grumpy, I'm feeling pretty grumpy right now.
Knickers Kate, I can feel your pain :-*
Kate
I'm sorry you're having such a rotten time - it must be very frustrating.
How long have you had the kiln? If it is within the last year or so, and assuming that you bought it in the UK, I would have expected the supplier to be sorting this for you rather than having you fit the parts yourself.
Sarah
xxx
they are asking you to keep track of the ACTUAL rate of change on the kiln... this is apparently because the controller can be asking for a faster rate change than the kiln can physically supply - leading to the error popping up...
pm me if you got the kiln from us, or if you would like me to chase them for you as i am already armwrestling them with a similar problem on one of our kilns?...
Hi Kate,
oh bum, only just read this!! If you need access to a kiln or torch or both (for bigger beads, anneal as you go) and want to come to Sheffield (well, Stocksbridge), my torch/kiln are your torch/kiln! ((hugs))
I know what he means I think.
He is wondering if you are asking the kiln to do something it won't and I think he is wondering if you are asking the kiln to cool quicker than it can.
To be honest, our controllers recognise that the kiln is going downbank when it is supposed to be cooling and so disables the alarm facility, unless something stupid happens obviously. I would have thought this controller would do the same but that is only guess work.
Also, when you consider the amount of this type of kiln that are out there you would think that this problem would have arisen elsewhere if it is user error.
Keep us all informed on how you get on pal.
Thanks for the tips, and for the offer Sabine, it's very kind of you.
I think I get what they're asking now, I've had to go away a few days, I'll get to grips with the kiln later in the week. K
how did you get on in the end?
It's fixed, I think, I've run the kiln once since getting a new thermocouple!! Well it could have been both the thermocouple and the controller, I got a controller first and that didn't fix it, but the new one was in when I fitted the thermocouple.
My advice would be, get a spare thermocouple, £20 odd quid, when you buy your kiln, it's worth a go if things start to go wrong.
So fingers crossed it will carry on playing nice! K x
I'm so glad you have got it fixed Kate. Great advice on the spare thermocouple. :)
great news!