I was thinking about going over to natural gas for my beadmaking. I don't notice the smell from propane when I'm working in my studio but when I go out and come back in again it's horrible. I've done quite a bit of torching lately and also notice I have a sore throat quite a lot - not really bad but enough to notice. I was wondering if anyone out there used natural gas and what they thought about it. I do use ventilation but the propane seems to 'hang ' about.
Diane x
natural gas is a lower pressure and i suggest that you look around for the implications of that.. i know that the bethlehem torches (the betta particularly) and the mega minor are both designed for use with natural gas - i am not sure about other makes/models... i also seem to remember that natural gas has a lower calorific value than propane - but i cannot swear to that.. this simply means that the torch will need to be "tuned" differently to get the same flame.. in principle there is no problem at all - and you can get your local gas chappy to plumb you in!.. the savings in fuel costs will be high! ;-)
That is a really interesting question Diane... I do hope that you find a definitive yes or no answer... I'll see if I can find out more :D
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417
I'd be a bit worried if I could smell propane at any time at all..... :o
I get the smell too. You can only smell it when you go out for a while and then go back in - it's smells like a swimming pool. My DH is a gas engineer and my pipes etc. are all checked for leaks. Plus I have ventilation and an extractor.
Kaz
I assumed that being able to smell it was normal! After a session beadmaking i can't smell it in my studio but when i go into the room above there is a very strong smell, especially if I have been reducing a lot(not my waistline unfortunately) !!!! I use an oxycon and propane-should i be worried? I have a Carbon monoxide alarm and it seems OK.
The only times I have ever been able to smell it is when I've changed cylinders, or when I first turn on the propane in the seconds before I light it. Oh, and I smelt it at a friends house when she had a leak, and at the flame off when people hadn't turned off torches properly. Apart from that, never. I'd be worried if I could smell it. Even on the 2-3 times I've forgotten to turn on my ventilation I've had no smell. I also check my connections at the start of most sessions too, with a soap solution - make sure you wash it off though as it furs up metal. ;)
Some people may have a very sensitive sense of smell - my DH tells me I do, so it could just be that?
I can only smell it when I have been for a walk to the shop and then go back in and it is not a horrid smell, just a bit weird like a warm swimming pool or recently bleached floor smell.
It really has been checked and double-checked and I have a CO detector (you would not be able to smell that anyway)
So I am not worried!
Kaz
Ok then, I admit I have an enquiring mind... so I tried to find out what the natural gas psi is when it goes into UK households.. nothing on the net, so I phone British Gas. Well, I might have been asking them 'what is the meaning of life' , they had no idea what I was talking about and recommended I phone Transco. So, I phone Transco, and asked the same question, after a lot of being transferred I was finally told that it should be between 19 - 22 millibars. Ok I said, thank you... Oh no, said the person I was speaking to.... I have to book you in for an engineers visit ?????? What ?? Well, since you phoned up about a gas problem we have to follow it up with an emergency engineers visit !!!! I explained that I had no problem with my gas supply, I was just interested and asked a general question. That wasn't good enough for Transco, who insisted that an engineer had to be called out. Then I was read the 'Gas Safety Rules'...
Did I smell gas, did any of my neighbours smell gas... (no, no) I must turn off all electrical appliances, ensure there was adequate ventilation, and also ensure that any pets were safely contained !!!!!!! I couldn't stop laughing during this... but was told that I had to have an emergency visit from a Transco engineer. 30 mins later he turned up !!! So I had once again to go through my story, that I just wanted to know what pressure gas came into my house at ..... and there were no, none, had never been, any gas leaks. Poor man, he looked very bemused.
maybe transco should listen rather than read their wee book of rules :D
Oh Fiona - I am sorry you had so much trouble but thank you for trying to find out more for me - I do appreciate it. I won't bother trying to find out any more by 'phone.
I must admit I do have a keen sense of smell - years ago they'd have sent me down the mines first instead of a canary!
Pardon the pun but this might have to go on the back burner for a while until we think about it a bit more. :-\ ::)
Thanks again for all your interest
Diane x
Just an idea - perhaps a call to CORGI, who regulate gas installation in the UK might result in better information.
CORGI
1 Elmwood
Chineham Park
Crockford Lane
Basingstoke
Hampshire
RG24 8WG
Opening Hours
Monday to Thursday 9.00 to 5.30
Friday 9.00 to 5.00
Contact Numbers
General Reception - 0800 915 0480
Membership enquiries & consumer advice - 0800 915 0485
I'm sure they won't send out an engineer!
Debs :)
Quote from: Diane on June 16, 2008, 06:53:17 PM
Oh Fiona - I am sorry you had so much trouble but thank you for trying to find out more for me - I do appreciate it. I won't bother trying to find out any more by 'phone.
I must admit I do have a keen sense of smell - years ago they'd have sent me down the mines first instead of a canary!
Pardon the pun but this might have to go on the back burner for a while until we think about it a bit more. :-\ ::)
Thanks again for all your interest
Diane x
No worries Diane... I thought it was very amusing - I've checked out the nortel torches and yes, they do take natural gas. Its a really interesting proposition... gas on tap, and I am going to do more digging about it.
I use natural gas with my minor, and two concentrators. (It was three concentrators, but one of them has succumbed to old age.)
I'm on house pressure, and I have sufficient heat to make really large beads, etc. I'm pretty happy with it. I had to hire a licensed gas-fitter to do the install, and my cost was about $350. CDN.
The swimming pool smell isn't the propane smell, I get it if I forget to turn my fan on, and I'm doing a lot of reducing. Your extractor isn't strong enough, or you need to add baffles or something, you shouldn't be smelling it. Changing your gas will only hide the problem, you'll still be breathing more fumes than you should.
Sorry, I'm sounding like a prophet of doom or something! Just being geeky, not meaning to lecture on safety!
Thanks Sherry thats very interesting... :D
Thanks for your reply Sherry and glad to hear from someone who uses natural gas with success. And Mary please don't think you are a 'prophet of doom'. It's good to be reminded of anything that's safety related and I do occasionally get carried away and forget about the extractor.
Diane x
Hi all,
For what it's worth, I run a minor on natural gas, and two oxycons. There's plenty of pressure, plenty of heat, and no need to worry about running out of anything! The supply is apparently at domestic pressure, so it's nothing special....
Sean
Thanks Sean - we are looking into it - might take a while but with gas reputed to being increased by 40% are beginning to wonder about the cost - have you done a costing on your gas usage?
Diane x
Interesting.... I was talking to Carole McAllister at the Newcastle Rock & Gem shop, and she has her torch plumbed into the regular house gas supply.
Didn't even know you could do that !
Diane,
Costing's a bit difficult because:
we've only been in premesis a year
our bill is combine gas & electric
we also have gas space heaters on the same supply
we rarely get our stuff together to submit a reading in time for the bill....
but, generally, we pay about £30/month, variable because it depends on what kind of work we're doing at any one time.
Also, our studio is upstairs, and we have bottle storage issues. When we see what the price rises do, we'll have a look at the whole thing, including a possible move....
I guess that doesn't help much, but my 0.02.
Cheers,
Sean
So have you resolved the situation?! I'm sorry to reopen a thread but have some related questions... I understand the gas is governed by domestic meters to be 21 mbar ie a fartish 0.3psi? Is your industrial supply able to run at the 30-50mbar (which is only just under 1psi max) pressure available behind the meter? Do you have to have a pressurised holding tank to add force sufficient to use through the torch? Thanks for any input, for the initial thread and hoping you got sorted ;)
Hi Sally - I decided to abandon the idea of natural gas as I went to a larger torch (Lynx) and I was doubtful about natural gas coping with just a domestic supply. I did upgrade my extraction and find that I don't have the problem of fumes now.
Diane x
Just to straighten a few things out:
Natural gas is about 92% Methane, 5% Ethane and a few other gases. Bottled Propane is mostly Propane but will contain some Ethane and Butane. All these gasses are very similar and produce water, carbon dioxide and possibly carbon monoxide. None of these products smell. None of the aforementioned gasses have an inherent smell. The smell is a mixture of noxious chemicals but mainly a substance called Ethyle Mercaptan. It is toxic but added in such small quantities that it is harmless, when burnt it will add a very small amount of sulphur dioxide to the flame gasses (that slight smell you sometimes get from your heating flue). Switching to mains gas will make no difference to the smell from torching because it is primarily generated by oxidising your mandrels.
The smell is caused by your flame reacting with the mandrel, bead release and anything else placed in the flame. If I have a good two hour boro session in the conservatory then the house stinks of hot metal and sometimes I get a red fringe to my kitchen hob flame! This indicates that something is in the air. (I really need more extraction.) Using a more neutral flame will reduce the oxidisation of your mandrals and cause less smell.
Connecting your torch upto the gas mains opens up a whole load of legal questions. For a domestic premises it falls mainly under The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 (which also applies to bottles gas). For a business premises more general health and safety law also applies. The regulations are written for domestic appliances and are unclear when applied to the situation where a domestic user is torching glass. A CORGI trained and registered installer is unlikely to be trained to install a non-standard gas appliances. CORGI interpret the regulations and translate them into a set of guidelines and standards that a registered engineer will comply with. If you bear in mind that the installer is legally responsible for the safety of any work he undertakes then he is may to refuse to connect your torch up. Generally a gas appliance must be safe, have sufficient ventilation and a suitable flue. It is arguable that a torch represents a similar situation to a gas hob however there is one key difference:
The main problem with connecting a torch to the gas main is that oxygen is also been supplied to the torch at a higher pressure than the gas (not an issue with a bottle). This means that there is a (remote) possibility that oxygen could be pushed back into the gas mains and result in a very dangerous situation.
I have not got time to work out the maths right now however for the same heat output Natural gas is less than half the cost of bulk propane. The price difference will be even higher for bottled propane.
Methane has a higher proportion of hydrogen to carbon atoms than Propane. This means it should generate less CO2 and CO for the same heat output.
So have you resolved the situation?!
Yep. I got a bigger torch, and a whole bunch of smaller ones, and some premix ones too. So I went over to propane. No mess, no fuss, and what I spend on propane I save by running oxycons instead of bottled oxy - lots of them....at least I used to save money. With LX prices as they are, it's nearly time to look at bottled oxy again...
Sean
i work with natural gas and love it, my instalation at home gives me a choice i can switch to propane if I wan to, but havent used that for almost a year.
i have 4 oxicons hooked up on a system so i can lead the oxigen to one torch but also to 4 diferent torches.
all the oxigen and gas connections from torchhose to the gaspipes are with quickconnect that allow gas only to go one way not back into the gas pipes. this for extra safety.
I have a minor, mini cc and bobcat working great on natural gas. I work also on a carlisle CC that doesn't work optimal with this settup but I'm certain this is not due to the natural gas but because my 4 oxicons don't give enough oxigen presure for this torch still I can do a lot of work on this torch.
Jacky