Hi I was just wondering if this is normal. I have programed the kiln ( got a schedule off FH ) It is set at a max temp of 530 deg. However this seems to go up to 8 deg higher or lower quite often!! Is this normal or have I got a fault on the kiln?
Thanks ;D
We operate a half dozen kilns and they all drift up and down 2 or 3 degrees F while firing, but an 8 degree variance C is something I'd be very concerned about. I'd definitely want to identify the cause and correct it.
Is it an Sc2? And does it go too high when you ramp up? Cos they do that when you are going up a bit fast.. also, if it is an Sc2 and you're annealing beads, you could try going a bit lower - say 520?
if you ramp using "full" on the paragons they are quite well known for overshooting their target temp... that is why we reduce the power to ramp up at 700 if we can... however, if the temp is up and down while it is just sitting there then you need to have it checked out..
8)
Are you opening and closing the bead door each time you use it? That makes the kiln work hard to bring the temp up, then it overshoots when you close it again. I leave it open while I work. The kiln will allow for that to maintain the temp. I close it when I'm finished putting beads in.
It does depend on the kiln and the controller you are using.
Some controllers will "figure out" how the kiln is behaving and so after a couple of overshoots it will home in on the correct temperature very accurately. Some won't and will always fluctuate slightly and 8 degrees is not unheard of at the 500c mark.
It does also depend on door opening e.t.c. so as you can see, their are lots of variables that could cause this.
What kiln are you using?
hi only just seen all of the above posts. I have an sc2 with bead door. I have it ramping up to full so may lower that as it also does it really quickly. I will keep closer eye on temp today as I think it is still going over quite a bit. Will report back ??? ??? ???
I think I read a recommendation to slow down the ramp for the last bit so it doesn't overshoot. There is a long thread about it somewhere on here.
hi there, I have slowed down the ramp thingy to 700. I have noticed the kiln is now really sticking to 510 deg. I am now a bit worried though as I have attached that mendrel rest and the bead door really looks as though it is open quite a lot, however I cannot close door any more because of the mandrels sticking out. Will this damage my kiln/beads????
No. Your kiln will work a little harder to maintain the temp, but your beads will be fine, as long as they are not too close to the door.
I had to take the mandrel rest right off my kiln as I couldn't get the bloomin door closed enough with the mandrels sticking out at the angle that the shelf forced them to be at (even with lots of "manipulation" of the shelf angle.)
Now when I open the door all the mandrels try and fall out, but at least the door closes.
The open-ness of the bead door makes a HUGE difference to the temperature stability and the annealling.
I have a Paragon Bluebird which was designed for bead annealling but to look at and to use it you wouldn't think the designer have ever annealled anything on a stick before. It's a truly rubbish design. Hope you're reading this Paragon!!
Quote from: Redhotsal on May 28, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
I had to take the mandrel rest right off my kiln as I couldn't get the bloomin door closed enough with the mandrels sticking out at the angle that the shelf forced them to be at (even with lots of "manipulation" of the shelf angle.)
Now when I open the door all the mandrels try and fall out, but at least the door closes.
The open-ness of the bead door makes a HUGE difference to the temperature stability and the annealling.
I have a Paragon Bluebird which was designed for bead annealling but to look at and to use it you wouldn't think the designer have ever annealled anything on a stick before. It's a truly rubbish design. Hope you're reading this Paragon!!
I shall be purchasing a kiln soon - hopefully - which kiln do you all recommend?
Hil x
yes I had had 2 mandrels fall out the other week. I have someone making a bead wrack for me hopefully this will help but the angles just don't help , my kiln temp has now shot up to 533 !!!!! odd, dropping now though oh crumbs the temp went up to 538 this is bonkers!!
Quote from: Hil on May 28, 2008, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: Redhotsal on May 28, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
I had to take the mandrel rest right off my kiln as I couldn't get the bloomin door closed enough with the mandrels sticking out at the angle that the shelf forced them to be at (even with lots of "manipulation" of the shelf angle.)
Now when I open the door all the mandrels try and fall out, but at least the door closes.
The open-ness of the bead door makes a HUGE difference to the temperature stability and the annealling.
I have a Paragon Bluebird which was designed for bead annealling but to look at and to use it you wouldn't think the designer have ever annealled anything on a stick before. It's a truly rubbish design. Hope you're reading this Paragon!!
I shall be purchasing a kiln soon - hopefully - which kiln do you all recommend?
Hil x
Keep an eye on www.kilncare.co.uk mate or any of our distributors....we are close!
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on May 29, 2008, 01:17:42 AM
Quote from: Hil on May 28, 2008, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: Redhotsal on May 28, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
I had to take the mandrel rest right off my kiln as I couldn't get the bloomin door closed enough with the mandrels sticking out at the angle that the shelf forced them to be at (even with lots of "manipulation" of the shelf angle.)
Now when I open the door all the mandrels try and fall out, but at least the door closes.
The open-ness of the bead door makes a HUGE difference to the temperature stability and the annealling.
I have a Paragon Bluebird which was designed for bead annealling but to look at and to use it you wouldn't think the designer have ever annealled anything on a stick before. It's a truly rubbish design. Hope you're reading this Paragon!!
I shall be purchasing a kiln soon - hopefully - which kiln do you all recommend?
Hil x
Keep an eye on www.kilncare.co.uk mate or any of our distributors....we are close!
How close?
Prototype fabrication finished mid next week. Chamber build and electrification the following 5 days. Doors final design and fitting the following week. Testing, then out to a few "top" beaders the following 2 weeks then into production providing the darn thing is deemed fit for purpose :o.
I prey we can, both build the "right" kiln and also meet the tight re-sale price critior, if so we will be go before the biennale where we shall be exhibiting and hopefully more.
Fingers crossed, the bead sector is the one remaining section of British glass that we do not have a kiln specific to.
Wow cool! That would be great, a Brit annealing kiln ;D
Quote from: Redhotsal on May 28, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
I had to take the mandrel rest right off my kiln as I couldn't get the bloomin door closed enough with the mandrels sticking out at the angle that the shelf forced them to be at (even with lots of "manipulation" of the shelf angle.)
Now when I open the door all the mandrels try and fall out, but at least the door closes.
The open-ness of the bead door makes a HUGE difference to the temperature stability and the annealling.
I have a Paragon Bluebird which was designed for bead annealling but to look at and to use it you wouldn't think the designer have ever annealled anything on a stick before. It's a truly rubbish design. Hope you're reading this Paragon!!
What are your primary complaints about the Bluebird mate?
hi
the bluebird is a low-cost kiln for batch annealing. the door design is much like the door on the sc2b, but bigger. it can use a regular socket. however, some people use internal bead mandrel supports and never use the bead door. it's described on www.electrickilns.co.uk.
paragon have made more kilns than anyone else - approaching 400 000. they draw on worldwide user experience. we've not had one complaint re the 50 or so we've sold, or those we've sold through resellers.
to say it's a rubbish design is unfair. it's basically a ceramic hot box with a door and a comprehensive programmer. they're easy to use and easy to repair. we've never sold ANY spares for a bluebird so i'm assuming they've never gone wrong.
thx
rob
likewise we have had not one single complaint or failure in any of the paragon's we've shipped throughout europe - from russia (siberia) to dubai... they are simple and robust tools and easy to programme once you've cracked the peculiarities of the system..
it would be great to have a locally produced bead specific kiln, i always have a twinge about airfreighting kilns on pallets as being "not sensible"..
but we digress from the thread a little here - i have been running one of ours to check and the temp does move around a little but nothing as much as you are showing... i suspect the probe is sitting a little deep and hence "over reacting" allowing the controller to under and overshoot.. although, it may also just be playing up although i am told that they are very VERY simple devices and usually don't misbehave, they just fail...
???
hi
just a quote from www.electrickilns.co.uk about temperature wobble:
All programmable kilns work in the same way: the thermocouple checks the internal temperature regularly and tells the programmer to switch the elements on or off to control the heating or cooling rate.
When the target temperature is reached, the elements are switched off. However, residual heat in the firing chamber allows the internal temperature to overshoot the target temperature briefly before starting to fall back.
This is more noticeable at low temperatures than at high temperatures. For example: 300°C will probably overshoot to 320°C whereas 800°C will probably only overshoot to 810°C before starting to fall back. Take this into account if you're working with temperature-critical materials or processes.
During the hold-time, with the elements still off, the internal temperature falls. Although the programmer will soon switch the elements back on, the firing chamber will initially absorb some of the new heat before the temperature recovers. The continual switching of the elements on and off causes the internal temperature to cycle around the target temperature.
The actual temperature of your work will be affected, slightly, by its position on the kiln shelf, the vertical spacing of any stacked shelves, and its nearness to the elements, a lid, a door, a bead door, a window, or a peephole.
If temperature is REALLY REALLY critical, buy a digital pyrometer and experiment a bit.
Remember that glass needs radiant heat and will fuse, sag, or slump better on one shelf than between stacked shelves.
Kiln doors and lids are not meant to be a perfect fit otherwise, at high temperatures, there'd be no room for expansion and the door could stick and the ceramic-fibre or firebricks could crack.
Eventually, with normal use, kilns discolour slightly, inside and outside, and some firebricks might develop hairline cracks. Remember, your kiln is a robust, versatile, red-hot tool: not an ornament.
thx
rob
re glassworks comment about shipping: yes it would be handy if kilns were made next door, but they'd probably be a lot more expensive. we have kilns arrive on big palettes from the US via a specialist shipper. there's NEVER any damage.
My Paragon SC2 maintains temperature within 3 degrees even with the door open.
It did overshoot in the early days when I was getting used to it but now I ramp at the fastest rate up to 400C and then have a second much slower step to take it to 515C. It takes about half an hour to get up to full temperature. I know others who get theirs to full temperature in 10 minutes, I'm sure I could do that with some tinkering with the programme, but I like having some time to pull stringers before I start beading without the pressure of feeling like I'm wasting the fully hot kiln time!
Hi,
This seems to be a good place to ask, as a lot of our kiln-experts are joining in ;D
I have just been over to a lady who has been sitting stroking her sc2 kiln for 6 weeks without daring to fire it up :o :o Anyway, we went over how to program the sentry 4.0 controller, which she got the hang of immediately, once she was shown. Whilst I was there we let the anneal-as-you-go program start up and run:
ramp1: full
temp1: 510 deg C
hold1: 5hrs
etc.
As I sat there I noticed the temperature went all the way up to 580 deg C before starting to turn. Now, to me, in the limited experience I have with kilns, that is way beyond overshooting (in my experience should not have exceeded 10-15 deg C). I showed her how to ramp up more slowly, but still feel there might be a problem there. I did check that the thermocouple was sticking a good way out from the wall of the kiln. I think I have read somewhere that a relay might be stuck, and that can cause this type of problem. If so, is there an easy fix? The kiln was standing on a flat slate on top of a workbench with good distance to any walls. Any thoughts anyone?
I couldn't stay there long enough to see how it reacted when we skipped to the next segment, but it would be nice to be equipped with some expert advice before going over to see her again. Thanks! :)
hi
it may be the thermocouple projection or is it partly obscured by a shelf or work? i've never had such a deviation, so can't reliably comment. we did do tests with a pyrometer and the data in my previous mail is more or less ok. a slower ramp speed?
the sc2/3 now have two side elements, not both sides and back, to even out the internal temp, esp with a bead door.
or maybe email laura@paragonweb.com in the US to see whether she has anything like that on her database.
rob
Thanks Rob,
I will speak to my friend later to see how the kiln behaved after I left her. The kiln was totally empty and the door closed when I observed.
Hi again, I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts here, As soon as my paragon sc2 kiln goes into the annealing stage which is set at 520 for 60 mins the temp go nuts it has just been at 550!!!!! never seems to stay close to the temp I have set it at???????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Hi turquoise,
I am not an expert on kilns at all - it seems you have a similar problem as my friend. Do you get any error messages at all? Have you checked that the thermocouple is protruding sufficiently into the kiln? As I said above I think I have read somewhere that a huge deviation from set temperature can be caused by a defective/stuck relay, but I don't know much about it. I told my friend to fire it a few times to see how it behaves over the weekend, and if the problem is still there we need to call the supplier etc.(she has a totally new kiln). Sorry I can't help much :(
never had the error message, kiln warms up great and stays around 510 when I am making the beads than when I go to the annealing part the temp goes nuts!!!!
hi
although i'm happy to help, if you feel that the kiln is faulty, and under guarantee, you can call/email paragon in the US. calls only cost 20p and they open about 14:00 our time. email is on www.paragonweb.com.
it's the first time i've heard of such a deviation, but sometimes they've had a similar thing happen in the US so have experience of it. we do have relays and thermocouples in stock if the US suggests that's the cause of the problem.
it's worth saying that the SC series kilns that we, and our resellers, sell have a 'new style' sheathed thermocouple. other suppliers may still be using the bead type thermocouple which, in my experience, was more prone to corrosion and subsequent failure.
if you look inside, the new type is a short stainless steel tube and the old type is two wires with a dot-weld joining them together.
if you turn your kiln on (make sure it's not hot) and hold the thermocouple with you fingertips the programmer should register about 37C.
replacing a thermocouple is easy. watch one of the videos on www.electrickilns.co.uk.
rob
thanks for that info, I need to have a closer look and find out more. thanks
Quote from: Robin on July 04, 2008, 09:53:18 AM
to say it's a rubbish design is unfair. it's basically a ceramic hot box with a door and a comprehensive programmer. they're easy to use and easy to repair. we've never sold ANY spares for a bluebird so i'm assuming they've never gone wrong.
Well, it's perfectly fair in my opinion.
From your point of view you are looking at the kiln as a supplier. They're all good points and I accept them and I would agree with them if I were a kiln supplier. But I'm not. I'm a bead maker so I'm looking at a kiln from the point of view of "does it do what I want it to do in order to anneal my beads easily, efficiently and economically?".
Yes, it's a bloody hot box - indicating the fibre insulation is minimal. That means that you'll be pouring electricity down the drain. It's so hot that the first time I used mine the paint discoloured above the doors. I know the new Bluebird is brick design (hmmm......now why would they want to redesign it if it was so good in the first place?)
Unfortunately I have the old one and as I use it every day I am well qualified to voice my opinion on whether or not I think it does the job of annealling beads.
Yes, the programmer is comprehensive. So comprehensive that there's a video on You Tube that tells you how to use it. In fact, I don't have a problem with the Sentry controller but there's been a fair few posts on here from people who have been thoroughly confused by it.
Yes, it is easy to use. (Once you've mastered the controller and removed the annoying mandrel "tray"). But it's a kiln.....how hard is it supposed to be?
As to it being easy to repair - great - let's hope mine doesn't go wrong.
BUT - I said it's a rubbish design. And it is. If you want to use it for beadmaking.
Insulation and controller aside. It's all about the bead doors. IF they are open too much the beads don't anneal. Ask me why? I've done a polariser test with the doors open, half open, closed, fully closed. You name it. If you regard stress lines which appear under polarised light as "Unannealled" then I tell you categorically that my beads are unannealled when the doors are as open as they would be in a Bluebird with the "mandrel tray" jobbie attached under "normal operating conditions".
I don't care what the controller says is happening. All the controller can do is tell you what is happening at the pyrometer. In the Bluebird I have the pyro is at the back and top of the kiln, and the beads are at the bottom and, when I first started using it nearer the door. All I know is that they were stressy. When I had the doors closed more this went away. Yes, I could crank up the heat to compensate. But why the hell should I? It should do what it was designed for.
Basically, if it has bead doors then it's a bead kiln. As a beader I don't like various aspects of its design and function. Therefore, what can I say other than it's badly designed FOR BEADMAKING.
hi
a few general remarks:
ceramic fibre kilns heat more quickly so use less electricity than firebrick equivalents.
once hot they need less electricity to keep them hot.
when hot, the programmer cycles the elements on and off. so they're not using electricity all the time. maybe half the time?
ceramic fibre kilns cool more quickly as they retain less heat. so a quicker turnaround.
firebricks heat more evenly, especially with a slower heating rate. probably better for glass.
ceramic fibre kilns are lighter to ship, lighter to move, and cost less to make. usually, they can use a regular 13A socket.
usally, ceramic fibre kilns have embedded elements - safer.
the paragon sentrry 4.0 programmer could hardly be simpler considering it has four eight-segment user-configurable programmes. watch the video on www.electrickilns.co.uk. the video will really help those people who pray to their kiln for a week and don't turn it on.
we, and our resellers, have sold about 100 bluebirds - no one has complained to us directly.
the bluebird bead door is basically the same as the SC series bead doors - which people seem to love.
we never undercut our resellers and i encourage you to buy from them, esp if you feel comfortable with their service and they understand beading/glass - which i don't.
it's hard to understand how a simple inexpensive practical robust design has just been called rubbish?
thx
rob
Just to chip in here.... I have a SC2 with a bead door. Once I begin stacking my beads, and the mandrels are at an angle, they slide out. Well they would wouldn't they? It's obvious. Well apparently not to the kiln designer. I've tried it with the mandrel rest, without the mandrel rest, with a home-made mesh rack, with long mandrels, shorter mandrels....
I have given up trying to stop them falling out of the kiln. Nothing I've tried works. I have an ugly burn market in my carpet to attest to this. Just as buttered toast always lands buttered side down, a hot bead will always land on an unprotected bit of carpet. (Yes I know I shouldn't have carpet, and I'm planning a tiled floor.) I have now resorted to placing an old square biscuit tin underneath the door in an attempt to catch any further escapees.... but I shouldn't have to.
hi
i've asked the CEO of paragon to comment, so i'll post his reply later. they must have made 20 000 so would have thought that the door/mandrel mechanism was popular.
we, and people like warm glass, tuffnells, aston, keepsake, somata, chununga, artclay supplies, silverclay etc etc etc must have sold 800+ and people often buy them through recommendation. so i'm really puzzled as to why this is the first time i've heard this complaint and why so many love the sc2b.
perhaps a detailed description with a photo should go to paragon in the US?
rob
I think it would be helpful to know roughly how many beads (on mandrels) the SC2 is intended to be able to manage at one time? If it's up to a dozen, it's fine. I know having the bead door at the top of the door instead of the bottom might cause more heat loss, but at least the mandrels would be positioned at the opposite angle, and it would be impossible for them to slide out.
Sorry Robin,
I'm not really dissing the kiln for being a kiln. As a kiln the design is fine. I'm just saying that as a beadmaker I want the kiln to do certain things. Like.....anneal beads, have the door closed to keep the heat in and not have "mandrel jackpot" like me, Bumpy and quite possibly a few other beadmakers get when they open their kiln doors and a load of badly balanced mandrels spill out on you, stick together or pick up kiln giz from the floor.
You don't think that happens? I'm willing to bet that it's happened to many beadmakers. Happens to me, and happens in every class I've taught at where piling a load of beads into a kiln - NOT just Paragons, I have to say - is a complete 'mare because noone has sat down and designed the kiln from a BEADMAKER'S point of view.
ROBUST? No sorry - It's flimsy. A Potterykiln Aurora is robust. I've got one of them too. There are grooves in the bottom of the door where the mandrels have worn away the door material. Consequently a lot of my mandrels roll around. It's only the door being shut that stops them from falling out because of the angle that they go in at. The fibre is coming away from the walls at one corner so it looks like a burst pillow. The paint is coming off and burned. It's less than a year old.
INSULATED? No, not very. I don't buy it that a brick kiln uses more electricity. Brick is a better insulator. It keeps the heat in. You only have to feel the top of my kiln to know that the heat is NOT being kept in.
I don't want my kiln to cool down quickly. I don't want a quick turnaround. I don't want my kiln to retain less heat, 'cos if it did that would mean I'd have to throw more electricity at it to keep it hot!
If I want a quick turnaround I wait until I've passed the strain point, turn the kiln off and then maybe I'll open the doors to let the heat out. If I wanted a quick turnaround. BUT I don't.
Look, I don't want to argue with you - I know that you are selling this kiln and it is your livelihood. I'm not saying "don't buy this kiln". Afterall I have one. BUT - when your CUSTOMERS are trying to tell you what they would like to change, or what they'd like to see, on a forum like this one where we discuss all things glass bead related, I would, if I was a supplier, be most interested, take notes and act on this information.
OK - look at things from this point of view.......I recently asked someone who was very well established about what they thought about the whole sticking beads into a kiln thing. They said, (to paraphrase), "well, you just make sure that your fresh bead is well away from the others for the first few minutes, and then you can juggle them all around in the kiln and then stack 'em up at one end."
So, I said, "what if it were possible to just put your bead in ONCE, and then not have to move it around to accomodate all the others?". "Oh," she replied "that would be great, wouldn't it? But that's not how kilns are though, is it?"
Do you see - people don't complain because THAT'S HOW KILNS ARE. Which is different to THAT'S HOW KILNS SHOULD BE.
hi
i'm not a bead maker, so can't offer reliable advice. however:
perhaps paragon would appreciate your comments as you may well be right. email ahoward@paragonweb.com - arnold is their kiln guru. try and attach a meaningful photo.
it's only by constructive suggestions that any product moves on from its initial design. also, initial designs are often constrained by price, ease of manufacture, box size, shipping weight, simplicity etc etc.
for example: our SC kilns have a lever catch, which replaces the ball catch. the ball catch always seemed to be too loose or too tight. pulling it would often upset your work. you sometimes needed two hands to make it work. if you took one of the balls out, it might not grip at all. however, some people have bent their catch and then complained, although it's extremely (VERY VERY) easy to straighten it. the lever is more adjustable and better suited to expansion/contraction. i tried for a year+ to get this sorted, and i'm still trying to get the quality improved.
new SCs only have elements in the sides, not the sides and the back. this should even out the front-to-back temp difference which didn't really suit glasswork.
most kilns discolour. as soon as the door is opened, or if there's an expansion gap, it gets 800C of heat. not many paints survive that for long. we changed the minikiln from red to black as it noticed less - and that's quite a carefully engineered kiln.
re being a supplier: i'd re-engineer a lot of products and use better screwheads, more careful alignment, different constructions etc. however, big factories don't want to change a screw if they've just bought 10 000. it's not easy. especially when they've just set up a $60 000 laser metal cutter ...
rob
Quote from: Robin on July 05, 2008, 06:06:28 PM
re being a supplier: i'd re-engineer a lot of products and use better screwheads, more careful alignment, different constructions etc. however, big factories don't want to change a screw if they've just bought 10 000. it's not easy. especially when they've just set up a $60 000 laser metal cutter ...
Then they do the customer research before they buy the 10000 screws. I've been in engineering too, so I know all of this argument. The only reason anyone can get away with that is when they have no competition. Sheer complacency and laziness. If you don't have any competition you don't have to pander to those annoying and troublesome customers by giving them what they actually want and using the right fricking screws, do you?
As I say - I don't care about the nuts and bolts, 'scuse the pun, I only want to know if it will do the job. Yes, the Bluebird does the job, but it could do it so much better. Actually - there's no way the paint is being affected by 800C of heat - the Bluebird only does 600C max and I've only ever had mine up to 530C tops. Thankfully - mine doesn't appear to overshoot much - but some of them do - there's a complaint.
No, I won't be emailing Paragon - why should I do their research for them? They should be reading this forum - and then they can draw their own conclusions.
Thing is - MOST newbie beadmakers are baffled to high heaven about what kiln to buy. It is very very confusing to people starting up and they worry endlessly about what kiln to buy. Let's face it £500+ is a lot of dosh to spend in one go and if you have loads of other things to think about - propane, oxygen regs, what torch, what COE, what glass? - you don't want to make a costly mistake.
There's no "What Kiln" guide.......Where do you find out about kilns? Well, word of mouth or by reading forums like this. You can't take one out for a test drive and you can't exactly return it once the front has gone brown. You buy it and you're stuck with it - whether it is good or bad.
So, I'll do my level best to tell it how it is. With kilns, torches and everything else. Yes, I've got a big gob and yes, I am annoyingly opinionated but I'd like to believe that what I write is as honest an opnion as you'll get on here. Afterall, I have no affiliation, no agenda and I am a customer.
Why is the Paragon SC so popular? In my opinion it is because when a few people say that they have one everyone else goes out and gets one too in the absence of a decent comparison chart - there's safety in numbers. It's also price. That's why I bought the Bluebird. It had a huge maw (so I thought I'd get a lot of beads in it) and it was probably the cheapest bead kiln available. Those were the only parameters I could base a choice on. Not very informed and I'd like to think I have a bit more experience than most people on here. But there you go.
Would I buy a car solely 'cause of it's price? Of course I wouldn't - because I know that there is a huge choice available. Not so with kilns.
hi
i'm not a bead maker nor a kiln manufacturer. if i had to learn about every kiln use, i'd need another life. yes, i'd make engineering changes but probably, whatever i did, someone would tell me it didn't work for them. it all seems to be a bit personal and maybe that's exactly how it should be.
however, this was the response from the CEO of paragon:
If they use the bead rest they should not fall out of the kiln unless they
stack them too high. They can always just bend the bead rest a little to
make it higher so the beads angle down toward the interior of the kiln.
This is the first time I have heard about this because we made the bend in
the mandrel holder to sit about 0.5 cm higher than the opening for the bead
rest.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
sorry it's the best i can do.
rob