Frit-Happens !

Technical Forum => Studio/workspace/setup/equipment => Kilns => Topic started by: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 08:46:03 AM

Title: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 08:46:03 AM
Hi guys

I am thinking of getting a new kiln - can't make me mind up though. I am torn between the SC3 and the Bluebird XL. I know I want firebrick not fibre, but apart from that all I want is one for annealing. Fusing and other stuff I can do in one of my other kilns.

Is anyone using the Bluebird XL? is it reliable?

Which one has the lowest energy consumption, ampage etc?

How many beads can you get in the SC3 (or an SC2 for that matter - I am open to anything right now). I am drawn to the bluebird because I don't want to run out of space torching all day, but the more compact size of the SC models also appeals, as does the fact they are well tried and tested models.

Argh....decisions, decisions!

Emma  ???


Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: glassworks on April 28, 2008, 08:55:57 AM
we have both, and we are therefore equally biased...

for beadmaking and small fused pieces with a bit of pmc type work - the xl wins hands down.. far bigger bead doors, much more stable temps, lower energy use... but it is BIG!!!!!! really really really BIG!!! ;-)

for general glass use, including beads etc, and taller pmc pieces or fused work, the sc3 is great... it is also very convenient in size, and is actually big enough for most everything you will do as a beadmaker/jewellery maker...

also, as a general note - they are both excellent in terms of "flogability" - so if you get one and decide you actually want t'other, there are loads of folks who will have your arm off and make crossgrading very easy!..

my version of this diallema is the SC3 for hobby/single user/creative use and the XL if you have a studio/production/and bigger output along with the odd class or group sessions...

(the bluebird XL is our biggest seller - followed by the SC3, so that tells you all you need to know about how popular they are!  ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lush! on April 28, 2008, 09:19:40 AM
I've got the SC3 but some days when I'm really really in the mood I do kind of fill it!

Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 09:37:21 AM
Emma,

I have the old style Fibre blanket lined Bluebird. If it's the same size as the XL actually - it's not that big. I can easily fill mine up in a day (and I'm not bragging). Don't know what I'd do with a SC2 - not nearly enough space. Don't forget - when you put in a fresh bead it is very sticky - so you need a space for the fresh beads away from the others. Having spent a week at Di Easts and spending needless time juggling garaged beads around to make room the whole bead door/kiln thing has really got on my nerves.

Di has a Caldera - which I quite like despite it looking like it was cobbled together by goblins (there are stretched out jubilee clips holding the metal skin over the firebricks. Neat thing about the Caldera is that it has a lower floor so your beads go downwards headfirst. On a Bluebird there is a tray (a really sharp tray) on the outside which is supposed to hold the mandrels. But if you use it you can't get the doors closed properly, so I took mine off. Now when I open a bead door I get a jackpot of falling red hot mandrels.

Actually- I'm not the best person to ask about kiln advice - I HATE THEM ALL WITH THEIR STUPID BEAD DOORS!!!!!

Warning - the old style Bluebird can only go up to 600 degrees, or something like that - so you won't be doing any PMC or fusing in it - better check out the max temp of the XL?

None of them come with any kiln furniture so be prepared to spend a few happy hours fashioning a suitable rack out of old mandrels.

Di also had a Plowden and Thomson annealler which looked pretty damn ugly but was as good as a SC2 so you might want to check that one out.

If you go for anything Paragon do note that you will have the standard Sentry Programmer - a programmer so damned complicated to fathom out there actually is a Youtube video telling you how to control it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyJc0tiwi1Y

Good Luck.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Zeldazog on April 28, 2008, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 08:46:03 AM
Hi guys

I am thinking of getting a new kiln - can't make me mind up though. I am torn between the SC3 and the Bluebird XL. I know I want firebrick not fibre,


You say you know you want firebrick - isn't the SC range ceramic fibre?  Or have things changed? God, I hate the kiln decision!
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: zeldazog on April 28, 2008, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 08:46:03 AM
Hi guys

I am thinking of getting a new kiln - can't make me mind up though. I am torn between the SC3 and the Bluebird XL. I know I want firebrick not fibre,


You say you know you want firebrick - isn't the SC range ceramic fibre?  Or have things changed? God, I hate the kiln decision!


Thanks Dawn

I just worked that one out myself actually, checking out the paragon website. Why did I always think the SC3 was brick? der!

Thanks for confirming though, since that was gonna be my next question!

Emma
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 10:03:05 AM
The old style Bluebird is Fibre but there is a new one which is firebrick.
You might be thinking of the Caldera which IS firebrick...
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: glassworks on April 28, 2008, 10:07:28 AM
excellent feedback already!!..

the xl is a LOT bigger than the standard bluebird - and weighs a HELL of a lot more.. the bead doors (and hence the kiln space itself) is also a few inches in all dimensions bigger, and it has a lot more volume.. i have a pic somewhere with both, let me dig it out for comparison, as i am sure there is an sc3 in the background on the same shot..

the sc3 in ceramic fibre lined, and hence the element wires are secured and not affected by any chemicals etx which may cause long term corrosion or damaged to them..

i have to agree that the whole bead door thing is a bit strange, as there does not appear to be any way to have mandrels in there and yet still close the door completely?.. we have to admit that we are used to it now so it does not bother us much, beyond hoping that someone will design a better way!...

we pre-programme the kilns precisely because the controllers can take a bit of getting used to - once you have run through a few programmes it does make a lot more sense, but the first few times it can be a little confusing if you have to try and figure it out for yourself from the manuals!!..

also please note allt he new kilns "smoke" a lot of chemicals etc when run for the first time - the number of paniced phone calls we've had bear testament to the "smelly" kiln when they first get turned on!!..

Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Zeldazog on April 28, 2008, 10:08:14 AM
Sal I like your comment about the Caldera looking as though it was cobbled together by Goblins.... so true!
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 10:09:40 AM
Got this off the Paragon website:

TEMPERATURE 
A kiln's maximum operating temperature sets limits on the materials and processes you can use. 1290°C is the highest temperature that standard kilns reach: above that, the materials and construction have to change, and the cost increases dramatically.

The maximum temperature is not related to the wattage: so a 4800W kiln does not get twice as hot as a 2400W kiln. The temperature depends on the elements, the firing chamber volume, and the programmer.
As with any device you buy, a kiln is not designed to be run full-on all the time. So, if you need to fire at 925°C for a long time, buy a 1095°C kiln, not a 925°C kiln. To give you a feel for temperature, here are the melting points for a few common materials:

MATERIAL °C
aluminium 659
copper 1083
glass 1700  
gold 1063
lead 163
nickel 1452
platinum 1772
silver 951
steel 1371
tungsten 3399

Blimey - it would appear that NONE of Paragon's kiln are able to supply enough temperature to melt glass - will someone please inform all the fusers?
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: glassworks on April 28, 2008, 10:12:44 AM
lol....  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 09:37:21 AM
Emma,

I have the old style Fibre blanket lined Bluebird. If it's the same size as the XL actually - it's not that big. I can easily fill mine up in a day (and I'm not bragging). Don't know what I'd do with a SC2 - not nearly enough space. Don't forget - when you put in a fresh bead it is very sticky - so you need a space for the fresh beads away from the others. Having spent a week at Di Easts and spending needless time juggling garaged beads around to make room the whole bead door/kiln thing has really got on my nerves.

Di has a Caldera - which I quite like despite it looking like it was cobbled together by goblins (there are stretched out jubilee clips holding the metal skin over the firebricks. Neat thing about the Caldera is that it has a lower floor so your beads go downwards headfirst. On a Bluebird there is a tray (a really sharp tray) on the outside which is supposed to hold the mandrels. But if you use it you can't get the doors closed properly, so I took mine off. Now when I open a bead door I get a jackpot of falling red hot mandrels.

Actually- I'm not the best person to ask about kiln advice - I HATE THEM ALL WITH THEIR STUPID BEAD DOORS!!!!!

Warning - the old style Bluebird can only go up to 600 degrees, or something like that - so you won't be doing any PMC or fusing in it - better check out the max temp of the XL?

None of them come with any kiln furniture so be prepared to spend a few happy hours fashioning a suitable rack out of old mandrels.

Di also had a Plowden and Thomson annealler which looked pretty damn ugly but was as good as a SC2 so you might want to check that one out.

If you go for anything Paragon do note that you will have the standard Sentry Programmer - a programmer so damned complicated to fathom out there actually is a Youtube video telling you how to control it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyJc0tiwi1Y

Good Luck.


Thanks for your comments Sal

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer and relegate the caldera to fulltime ceramics and art clay silver work.

The bluebird is tempting me the most, but I just don't know if it will fit in the space I wanna put it in! Looking at the paragon site, it is 83 cm wide!

I am used to the controller on the paragon kilns - actually I find them quite easy to use now I am used to them, although I remember it being a MF to work them out at first  ::)

Argh

I really hate this aspect of beadmaking. I wish we could hire out brains from somewhere when we need to think stuff through and get the hire-brain to do it all and just tell us what to do.

Emma
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 10:15:36 AM
This also from the Paragon website:

SC meant Small Ceramic, not SilverClay. There is no longer an SC-1 kiln, the SC-2 is called an SC2 or SC2-1, the SC-2B is called an SC2 Bead Door, the SC-2W is called an SC2 Vista, the SC-2BW isn't called anything, the SC-3 is called an SC3 or SC3-4, and the SC-3BW isn't called anything.  

Oh good, that's all as clear as s*** then....  ;)
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 10:17:35 AM
I'm having way too much fun picking apart the paragon website - which must mean it's time to go off and do some real work.....
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:28:03 AM
oh don't be mean to Paragon - they are really nice people! Even if their copywriting is somewhat dodgy!

Emma
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Redhotsal on April 28, 2008, 10:34:32 AM
Hehehe  ;D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Billie on April 28, 2008, 10:43:35 AM
Quote from: zeldazog on April 28, 2008, 10:08:14 AM
Sal I like your comment about the Caldera looking as though it was cobbled together by Goblins.... so true!


I love my "cobbled together by Goblins" Caldera  ;D ;D ;D  and I also found programming it very simple last year when I put in two schedules... although I've now to set another program for PMC so hopefully I'll remember how I did it/can find the instruction manual since moving  :D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 11:27:16 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:13:25 AM

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Don't get me started on that one again >:(
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Zeldazog on April 28, 2008, 11:31:25 AM
I nearly had a Caldera

In fact, it arrived, it got unpacked, it sat on the side for a while for me to make a decision - it got sent back because I decided it wasn't "portable" enough for me (I needed something I could put away, as I fuse in the kitchen and didn't want it sitting on the work top all the time) - it was a bit awkward to move (handle position, etc) and I dind't like the bare brick underneath which left bits every time I tried to pick it up

Ironically, I ended up with a Skutt Hot Start, an even bigger heavier kiln that I can't even lift - had a trolley made so it can wheel in and out of the cupboard - for some reason, making one of those for a caldera never occured to me which would have solved my problems and made the Caldera spot on (oh, apart from its size, by Skutt can do 12" diameter, as opposed to a 8" square - although its nowhere near as hot as a Caldera can go - and can't have a bead collar added for if/when I start to get into bead making (inevitable one day) - that said, its top firing, and very even - god, I could drive myself insane)
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Billie on April 28, 2008, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 11:27:16 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:13:25 AM

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Don't get me started on that one again >:(

Oh go on... Get started on it again.  I must have missed the rant the first time around  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Debs on April 28, 2008, 12:12:22 PM
I have a bluebird XL, brilliant if you are having a full day of lampworking.  so much room in here I've never filled it yet :)  Mind you, I've only been lampworking for 3 months, so probably dont make that much in one day anyhows ;)  Mine came pre programmed from Q so I didn't even need to worry about that side of things, just turn it on, select the programe I want and off I go.  I checked once how economical it was to use and once its up to holding temp, the dial on the electricity meter didn't even move.  The extra £50 was worth every penny :):)  Debs
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: beadysam on April 28, 2008, 01:01:35 PM
Well I'm smug cos I have a Jen-Ken that I  LUUURRRVVVEE! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: Billie on April 28, 2008, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 11:27:16 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:13:25 AM

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Don't get me started on that one again >:(

Oh go on... Get started on it again.  I must have missed the rant the first time around  :D :D :D

Hi Billie, here is the link to my inane ranting.

Bare in mind the thread is back in Feb and things may have altered since then with regards to kilns supplied here.....then again, they may not.

http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1356.0

You did ask.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Revontulet on April 28, 2008, 01:09:10 PM
I've got an SC3 with bead door, and it's great, except for when I have a long session and fill it up - there's a lot of space which is unusable because its as tall as wide. I bought this one to have the flexibility for larger pieces, but if you're only annealing beads, something with more 'floor space' may be better.

HTH  ;D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 01:20:15 PM
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: Billie on April 28, 2008, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 11:27:16 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:13:25 AM

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Don't get me started on that one again >:(

Oh go on... Get started on it again.  I must have missed the rant the first time around  :D :D :D

Hi Billie, here is the link to my inane ranting.

Bare in mind the thread is back in Feb and things may have altered since then with regards to kilns supplied here.....then again, they may not.

http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1356.0

You did ask.


Lee dude - you give good rant my friend. In fact, I think you could probably give both me and RHS a run for our money in the ranting dept, and that is saying something!

I have to say, I love my caldera as an alrounder kiln, but the safety issues on the whole bead door thing have long troubled me. I got a nasty electric shock as a kid and its not an experience I care to repeat!

Hence my wish for another - and its starting to look like the Bluebird XL I think, unless anyone else has any good firebrick recommendations?

Emma
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Billie on April 28, 2008, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: Billie on April 28, 2008, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on April 28, 2008, 11:27:16 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 28, 2008, 10:13:25 AM

I already use a caldera - just worried about touching live elements with my mandrel! That is why I wanted to get something a little safer
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Don't get me started on that one again >:(

Oh go on... Get started on it again.  I must have missed the rant the first time around  :D :D :D

Hi Billie, here is the link to my inane ranting.

Bare in mind the thread is back in Feb and things may have altered since then with regards to kilns supplied here.....then again, they may not.

http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1356.0

You did ask.

Cor!!  I'm glad I sat down to read that drinking a cuppa  ;D  Fortunately mine does have a cut-off switch (although I never open the lid as I have the bead collar) and I also use very short mandrels  :D :D :D  Interesting read though Lee and some great points, so thanks for posting that link.  Will stand me in good stead when I start on some PMC work.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: glassworks on April 28, 2008, 02:14:53 PM
lol, all the paragon's with exposed elements and top hinged etc now come with trigger switches to cut the current.. the bluebird has in theory got an exposed element, but there is no way i could stick a piece of wire up inside there to electrocute myself, unless i was already lying on the floor and wishing to end it all!  ;D ;D ;D ;)

all good points though - it is good to see the kiln manufacturers making better efforts to keep us all safe from the poked mandrel incident!!

8)
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ♥♥Tan♥♥ on April 28, 2008, 02:22:39 PM
Quote from: beadysam on April 28, 2008, 01:01:35 PM
Well I'm smug cos I have a Jen-Ken that I  LUUURRRVVVEE! ;) ;D

me too ;D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on April 29, 2008, 09:48:16 AM
Quint, I have never got my hands on a Bluebird so I'm not sure how the elements are fitted. I have had a good look around on the net but can't find the info required. If the elements are set into grooved roof bricks as other Paragons used to be then it is almost certain that they need to be door switched, whether that be in Europe or in the U.K.

Obviously I am not saying the kilns do not comply as I have no first hand knowledge of this kiln specifically. It may be that the elements are not fitted in this way and the kiln is safe, it is just with you mentioning that they have exposed elements that the alarm bell rang.

I really would advice you to take a closer look into this mate for your own protection as you are the importer I presume. It could be argued that the operation methods of this kiln make it O.K. but I don't think that would be the case.

We have both come across kilns, I'm sure, with elements set into the roof bricks where the elements sag out of the grooves over time.

I know you would have to be a idiot to go sticking your mandrel into the groove but the laws are they to protect idiots unfortunately.

Hate to sound like an old grump, just trying to help.

Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: ejralph on April 29, 2008, 04:42:05 PM
Lee, I'm guessing that is how they are. From the clay-king website it says "The BlueBird XL has durable insulating firebricks in the roof, walls and floor. The element is seated in pinless grooves in the roof."

Looking at it, an idiot (ie - me) could probably manage to stick a mandrel into that just as easily if not easier than I could already with my caldera and the bead collar.

I know in both instances it is highly unlikely, but I am pretty cack-handed at times..  ;D

Emma
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Black Heart Beads on April 30, 2008, 12:39:06 AM
Hi have the SC3 as I thought I would get into fusing one day and wanted the extra hight. But for now I just do beads and recently a bit of PMC. Mainly I only have a couple of hours at a time to make beads but on the rare occasions I get a full day I do find the lack of a space of a pain. For batch annealing its got loads of space.

When I eventually find the time to do fusing I am sure it will come into it's own again.

Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on April 30, 2008, 08:01:38 AM
Quote from: ejralph on April 29, 2008, 04:42:05 PM
Lee, I'm guessing that is how they are. From the clay-king website it says "The BlueBird XL has durable insulating firebricks in the roof, walls and floor. The element is seated in pinless grooves in the roof."

Looking at it, an idiot (ie - me) could probably manage to stick a mandrel into that just as easily if not easier than I could already with my caldera and the bead collar.

I know in both instances it is highly unlikely, but I am pretty cack-handed at times..  ;D

Emma
Yes I've read that too mate, I know I have said this before, but for a country that is allegedly so litigation addicted I am amazed at how lapse their electrical safety laws are.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: glassworks on April 30, 2008, 08:40:50 AM
i have an xl here, and i have to say that there is no way i can see that you could even willingly get a mandrel in there... the slot behind which the elements are fitted is WAY to narrow for the elements to fit through, unless they melt - in which case you probably have other issues to worry about!... ;D ;D

we're happy they are safe enough, and they certainly outperform the standard bluebird, but they are big beasts to be fair!... are there any kilns out there that have a circuit switch on the bead door?.. i haven't found a bead door type kiln that interrupts the heating when you open the bead door, but i am sure there must be one.. obviously the paragon's that have exposed elements and opening lids are all fitted with safety cutouts on their doors...
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on April 30, 2008, 09:45:38 AM
Hi Quint again, I suppose the next question would be what kind of door switch but then that's a different question all together  ;D ;D

I'm sorry for being a little negative it's just that I have seen so many kilns from across the pond that are nowhere near the grade, perhaps I shouldn't generalise. Apologies. They can't all be bad eggs.

Anyway, here's a question for my own curiosity. If the elements won't come out of the groove in the brick how do you change them? Like I say, that's just me being nosey ;) :D
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: sea-thistle on June 02, 2008, 01:00:41 AM
I have an SC2 Kiln which i use at present for Glass Fusing. i am very pleased with mine i've had it about 4 years now. The only problem i have is that you can't get to shelves of glass fused at the same time. the top shelf, the glass is mostly tack fused or not fused at all. !! ::)So only use one shelf.

I am going to be making beads shortly and wondered whether this kiln is going to be any use? also if it is, how do I anneal the beads in there?Do I have to put them in something? or can they go onto kiln washed shelf? I am thinking of buying a bigger kiln , so I can fuse larger pieces of glass, panels dishes etc. I was thinking of a Paragon Fusion 7 or 8 . The kiln has to work off a  household 13 amp fuse.

hope someone can advise me
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on June 02, 2008, 08:43:25 AM
I'm sorry but it would be best if one of the beaders off here were to give you advice on the beading.

I am the kiln chap and as such what I can do is recommend a kiln.

If you are looking at the fusion 7 or 8 then please consider our Hobbyfuser or Hobbyfuser Midi, they are far superior kilns in everyway, designed for glass fusing (not a modified ceramics kiln) and built here in the U.K.
Take a look
http://www.kilncare.co.uk/kilns_glass_fusingandslumping_hobbyfuserandhobbyfusermidi.html

Also I'm sure regular readers on here know of my dislike of having bricks above glass and elements set into bricks.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Josephine on June 02, 2008, 09:19:08 AM
Hobbyfusers are really good, well built with good even heat, and the controllers are really easy to understand. If fusing is your main thing and you want to be able to some bigger dishes and panels.....and you would be happy to batch anneal beads then I am sure you would be happy with it I a usinng mine at the moment to batch anneal beads until I get a new bead annealing kiln. I prefer annealing as I go along otherwise I might just stick with the Hobbyfuser, but you can't keep opening and closing the lid to add each bead as it lets out too much heat and the temp goes up and down too much.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: sea-thistle on June 02, 2008, 09:38:47 PM
Thank you Lee and Josephine for your advice! I will certainly look into  :) the Kilncare range.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Dizzy Di on June 02, 2008, 10:41:16 PM
Hi,
I got my new bluebird about 5 weeks ago, from Martin, its great and plenty of space,  I do have a J14 Paragon for batch annealing and fusing, as when i first looked at kilns it was the largest I could find that used house hold electrics, without calling in the local electrician.
Does the hobbyfuser work on household electric without the need of an electrician?
Dianne
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: flowerjasper on June 02, 2008, 11:41:42 PM
Quote from: sea-thistle on June 02, 2008, 01:00:41 AM
I have an SC2 Kiln which i use at present for Glass Fusing. i am very pleased with mine i've had it about 4 years now. The only problem i have is that you can't get to shelves of glass fused at the same time. the top shelf, the glass is mostly tack fused or not fused at all. !! ::)So only use one shelf.

I am going to be making beads shortly and wondered whether this kiln is going to be any use? also if it is, how do I anneal the beads in there?Do I have to put them in something? or can they go onto kiln washed shelf? I am thinking of buying a bigger kiln , so I can fuse larger pieces of glass, panels dishes etc. I was thinking of a Paragon Fusion 7 or 8 . The kiln has to work off a  household 13 amp fuse.

hope someone can advise me
i have a SC2, i batch anneal, ie cool the beads in vermiculite then thread the beads back on to manrels when i have enough,
i got some wire from b+q, bent it into a square  "U"shape (Flat bottom u!),
put it on a ceramic tile in my kiln, then put in my bead kebabs, i can get loads of beads in at one time,
programmed the kiln from a thread on FH,
seems grand!
i do tend to make smallish beads tho!
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on June 03, 2008, 08:03:06 AM
Quote from: Dizzy Di on June 02, 2008, 10:41:16 PM
Does the hobbyfuser work on household electric without the need of an electrician?
Dianne

Yes pal, the Hobbyfuser Midi and the larger Hobbyfuser both plug into a standard 3-pin 13 amp socket.
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Lee - Kilncare on June 25, 2008, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: glassworks on April 30, 2008, 08:40:50 AM
i have an xl here, and i have to say that there is no way i can see that you could even willingly get a mandrel in there... the slot behind which the elements are fitted is WAY to narrow for the elements to fit through, unless they melt - in which case you probably have other issues to worry about!... ;D ;D

we're happy they are safe enough, and they certainly outperform the standard bluebird, but they are big beasts to be fair!... are there any kilns out there that have a circuit switch on the bead door?.. i haven't found a bead door type kiln that interrupts the heating when you open the bead door, but i am sure there must be one.. obviously the paragon's that have exposed elements and opening lids are all fitted with safety cutouts on their doors...

I have just got my first look at a Bluebird and once again my blood boils. The element IS accessable, there is no door switch and the design purpose of the kiln is to insert METAL rods into the kiln whilst it is running. Think about kilns for a second, they are considered one of the more dangerous pieces of electrical equipment around. Most kilns are designed to be loaded, closed then turned on. Turned off, opened then unloaded. A bead annealer is designed to be prodded about inside with metal rods whilst still running which, by my way of thinking, puts it up at the top end of risk kilns surely.

The element in the blubird is set into a groove into the roof brick and although I agree it will not come through, not yet anyway, it can definitely be touched by the mandrel in fault conditions. Let's say, the user is using a rod longer than usual, say 30cm or more, it is possible with a rod of this length that is can tip when the door is opened, it is then pointing towards the roof and so there is a chance that is could come into contact with the element.

Now this is the Bluebird not the XL so it maybe that the XL is powered differently, but, unless the Bluebird is now powered differently now, then, I'm afraid this is going to end in tears for someone, somewhere regrettably, be it a user or a supplier.

I am having to be very carefull what I post here, not from a legal point of view as I know the regs on what is allowed and what is not inside and out , but, from a "making myself look like a bitter Pratt" point of view :-[.

I have made my feelings on this issue felt before and this one takes the biscuit!!!!!!

By the way mate, as far as I know, there are no bead annealers out there with door switches fitted to the bead door.

Remember the golden rule of corporate business, profit over safety everytime!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Robin on July 03, 2008, 07:31:51 PM
hi

the bluebird is only hot enough for bead annealing - 650C. the bluebird xl at 850 for beads, glass fusing,  and metal clays. the sc2/3 heats to 1095.

of course, don't poke any kiln with a metal rod. just as: don't get hot toast out of a toaster with a knife.

the earlier remark about paragon's illogical model names. it was meant to be a amusing, not helpful. for example: the janus 1613 is 16" x 13". the tnf66 is not 66". etc.

rather than be mystified you can call me at Electric Kilns (Paragon distributor) on 01929 477137. i'm happy to explain how kilns work and how to repair them. it's not difficult and, if you've not killed yourself with your toaster, you'll be ok with your kiln.

thx

rob

Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: beadysam on July 03, 2008, 09:47:55 PM
I'd pretty much agree with the toaster comment. We are people that have to be very aware of safety at all times, using gas, hot tools,open flames, metals and molten glass.  We should be sensible enough to deal with a kiln that is maybe less than perfect.  However, once in a while we all let our guard down a little and accidents happen as my charred index finger will agree. :o  There is potential for injury or even death, but as long as we make an informed choice about our kilns and are fully aware of its downfalls and the possible occurence of something very nasty, I don't think this is anymore risky than buying a torch, a gas cylinder,  or even many other electrical appliances...    or maybe I'm just daft?
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: glassworks on July 03, 2008, 10:01:26 PM
my thoughts exactly...

this IS a hobby/obsession involving molten glass at the end of the day... collecting stamps is probably safer, but much less fun... common sense erring on the side of caution is our guide - and yet i STILL occasionally pick up 20mm boro rods at the wrong end while making marbles - ooooooooooooo.... aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! but i am getting better about it - and i still have most all of all my digits!.. (if not my finger prints any more!!  ;D ;D ;D)

8)
Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Robin on July 04, 2008, 07:51:27 AM
hi

re paragon. over the months, lee from kiln care has critiiced paragon kilns and recommended his own brand. for example:

"If you are looking at the fusion 7 or 8 then please consider our Hobbyfuser or Hobbyfuser Midi, they are far superior kilns in everyway, designed for glass fusing (not a modified ceramics kiln) and built here in the U.K."

this type of commercial bias has no place in a forum aimed at helping people. the fusion range works for thousands of people. the programmer is simple  to use but versatile. being built in the uk means nothing in the international market we live in. check how many things you use everyday are made here - probably approaching zero.

it's hard to advise people when, in his own post, he said he hadn't even seen a bluebird until recently. "I have just got my first look at a Bluebird and once again my blood boils." Martin Tuffnell resells them - ask him if his blood boils.

and i should point out that when lee bought an sc2 element from us to repair an sc2, he had to order a second one as the 'repair' went bang.

so lee, ease off.

rob

www.paragonkilns.co.uk

Title: Re: Bluebird or SC3?
Post by: Pat from Canvey on July 04, 2008, 08:03:59 AM
If you think putting mandrels in a kiln is dangerous, you should try combing glass.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1426/5604171/12685369/229614336.jpg)
I do this with all the safely gear on and have to shut the door of my big ceramic kiln beteen each pass of combing.
Here's another finished project,
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1426/5604171/12685369/229614340.jpg)