Apologies for the long post, but I am about to buy a kiln and start playing about with glass. I know this post is like a lot of other requests, but my requirements are different. I have no interest in bead making but want to do casting, fusing and slumping. My wife is a picture framer and we have masses of scrap float glass so I intend to make paper weights and other castings to use it up and recycle it. I have a budget of about £1,000 and want a kiln that is reliable and easy to maintain, get spare parts for and preferably built in the UK and needs to be a plug in type. I also don't want to spend ridiculous amounts on delivery to the Highlands (yes, courier companies, we are part of the mainland!). Comments would be appreciated. I'm looking to order in June. I have limited experience but have done a couple of courses and enjoyed them. I would do further courses, but there are none in this area (West Highlands).
I've tried looking at the kilns available in the UK, and some sites like warmglass are easy to get information from, but Cherry Heaven / electric kilns is an absolute nightmare and some are even worse. If people have notes on other kilns available in the UK I'd be interested in links. A summary of what I've found is below:
Scutt Firebox 8 - £584 – probably too small
Paragon SC2 variants - £615-681 – too small again and shelf etc extra
Scutt Hotstart Pro - £814 +shelf – looks quite a good size and value, but I wonder whether a square kiln would be better
Scutt Firebox 14 - £994 – good size and seems extra space worth it for not a great deal extra cost
Kilncare Hobbyfuser 3 - £1513 – over budget but looks excellent
Rhode Glass Fusing Kiln 40 - £2149 + shelf – well over budget, but have not seen any revies of comments on it
Paragon Fusion CS16S - £1485 – very little information apart from size
Paragon Fusion 14 - £940+accessories – reasonable size and weight
Paragon Caldera - £948 – goes much hotter to 1290C, but probably too small
Paragon Fusion 16 - £1230+accessories – over budget
Paragon Fibrefuse 16 - £1338+shelf – this one looks excellent and worth the extra money and has the advantage of being very lightweight, so might be worth considering – has anyone any reports on this?
RL Kiln Services GF13 - £1200 – UK made and good size – does anyone have any information on this? Can't find much online
Essex kilns Hobbyist - £1384+accessories – is that a Hobbyfuser by a different name?
In summary, I'm thinking a Scutt Firebox 14 would fit the bill the best, but the Fibrefuse 16 also looks tempting although quite a bit more expensive when accessories / shelf etc are taken into account, and it's much lighter so will be easier to move around.
i dont have a big kiln but the one i do have is a kilncare model and i dont think you can fault them for service and support so if i was going to recommend a kiln producer it would be them , also they do have second hand ones come up occasionally on their face book pages etc
https://www.facebook.com/Kilncare-Ltd-238801689732/
Hi :)
I am NOT a fuser but I would like to put in my pennithworth for kilns made by Kilncare. They are UK made and their customer service goes beyond anything you have ever experienced, they are outstanding. They sometimes have second hand kilns too and some come up on here sometimes. Sorry I can't advise on the fusing side, but thought you should know how wonderful Kilncare are (I won't be the last person to say this!). Say hello to the West Highlands, somewhere I dream about. Have fun with the glass :)
Quote from: sarah t on April 27, 2016, 03:40:28 PM
i dont have a big kiln but the one i do have is a kilncare model and i dont think you can fault them for service and support so if i was going to recommend a kiln producer it would be them , also they do have second hand ones come up occasionally on their face book pages etc
https://www.facebook.com/Kilncare-Ltd-238801689732/
Ooh, cross posted, but I did say others would speak highly of KC :)
I don't know the Skutt kilns personally, so don't know how they compare, but I can also recommend Kilncare. I have a Kilncare Hobbyfuser - excellent British build, great advice/after sales service, 3-year guarantee on all parts including elements. It is a good size and shape to give you lots of scope for fusing - the quartz tube elements in the lid seem to provide very quick and even heating and the KCR2 is an easy-to-use controller which can store 9 different firing programs. (I also have a stand alone KCR2 controller on another kiln and it's much better than the original.) I have a Paragon Caldera, too - great for high temperature ceramics, but much higher temps than you need for glass, traditional coil elements in the sides seem to provide less even temperatures, not such a good size and shape and a less user-friendly controller - plus I had a less than brilliant experience buying it from paragon.co.uk which is, I think, the same as Cherry Heaven, so would not use them again.
My tuppenceworth;
I had a HotStart (like lots of people) and it was a fantastic workhorse. It keeps its heat well, and was economical to fire. I only began to run into limitations when I wanted to do taller things; any kiln with elements only in the lid will mean you need to be careful putting things close to them. I was worried about things like drop-outs getting thermal shocked because of how close they were to the elements, and wished I had a kiln with side-heating.
I was able to get 6 coasters in it at once (cut them 9cm not 10cm, and magic happens) and 8 trinket dishes, meaning the cost per fire per item was low. I never did any large-scale casting, but I didn't notice uneven heating; I'm not sure whether for casting you'd need all-around heat from side-elements and top-elements, or whether you can do it with top-heat only. I cast little buttons and things and they always came out nice and even.
Hope that helps - how exciting for you! I hope it goes well. We're lucky here in G84 that we count as the 'mainland'... just! =)
I feel I should chip in a word for Paragon! I do a lot of fusing, in a Fusion 7 (for wide things) and an E10 (for taller things). No problems in 4 years, though both bought second hand. When I had a query, I emailed Paragon in the US, and they couldn't have been more helpful. Lots of other sellers besides Cherry Heaven.
The only one on your list I know nothing about is Rhode Glass. I'm sure any of the others will give satisfaction.
If you're thinking of casting though, I'd go for a firebrick type not fibre, as you'll be doing looooooong heating and cooling times, and these hold the heat better.
BTW, http://www.creativeglassshop.co.uk/category/646/float-compatible.html have a good range of float compatible stringers, confetti etc.
Have fun! Moira :)
I started with the Sc2 which has been superb as a kiln although I have had to replace the relay inside it once, I still use it for annealing beads ands all bits of fusing (powder wafers for example) but I invested in a Hobbyfuser just over a year ago and couldn't be happier with it. Very easy to programme, clear display, 9 programmes (although I would love to have more).
given the choice again, and the ability to stretch the budget I would go with the Hobbyfuser again with no hesitation.
Bought both my kilns from Wam Glass, got the Hobbyfuser in their annual kiln sale.
Anyway, have fun choosing.
Not a lot to add - I started with a Skutt Hot Start Pro, fantastic kiln, proper work horse, cheap to run, simple and does what it says. I upgraded to a Hobbyfuser for more space, also a work horse, also cheap to run. Both fab kilns and I can vouch for both Kilncare's after sales care, and Warm-Glass UK support.
Something to consider, you are talking of casting with scrap float glass - you might want to check out the casting temperature for this glass as it will be higher than such as Bullseye.
Most, probably all, of these kilns would reach temperatures that you could cast Bullseye with, but I'd speculate that some of them would be heading towards the top end of their temperature to do so (you didn't post links and some of these models I've never heard of or seen, and I did a LOT of research when buying, so I don't know the spec of them).
Float fuses a good 40 or 50 degrees C above B/Eye and I don't know what it would take to cast it. If you push your kiln the limit on every or a lot of firings, you will wear it out much quicker.
Moira makes a good point that you should definitely stick with firebrick if you're doing a lot of casting, as it requires slow ramps and long holds for even temperatures. Fibre kilns lose heat quicker.
Alan (Adja) is correct, Cherry Heaven and Paragon are the same business. They used to above five different websites, all selling Paragons, one of them was called Kitiki - they all look quite similar. Whilst I won't bad mouth a retailer, I would ask you to consider if there website is a nightmare to navigate, what is the company like as whole?
There are a few kilns on eBay at the moment. Search glass kilns, they are from 1 seller and they are closer to your budget whilst being a bit bigger like the hobbyfuser. They are gfk and I have no idea whether they are any good, but they are clamshell which I would love even though I have a hobbyfuser...
I have a Firebox 14 - picked because it was the largest plug in I could afford. Great kiln for fusing as easy to use, inexpensive to run etc. But I completely agree with what has already been said about the limitations for casting because of top elements only. I work a lot with waste glass both from picture framers and from a garden centre scrapping old greenhouses but I have not used it in casting. I have encountered problems with deeper slumping projects, very careful slow heating helps to some extent but there is a limit to what you can ask the glass to do when all the heat is coming from above.
Any casting I have done has been at classes and has been done in an old ceramic kiln with side elements and very good insulation.
Kiln buyers Catch 22:
1. I need to decide exactly what I want to make before I buy a suitable kiln.
2. I need a lot of fusing experience before I find out exactly what I want to make.
;) Moira
Thanks for the advice coming in thick and fast, it's slowly pushing me towards the Hobbyfuser 3. I looked at the ones on eBay and the seller says they are UK manufactured, but the company you get to when searching for the kiln is based in Turkey with no UK address.
The SC2 and Firebox go up to about 1100C, the Hotstart and Firebox to 870C and the Hobbyfuser to 950C. The Paragons seem to go to about 925C and the Essex Kiln to 1000C. A bullseye glass casting schedule goes up to 830C (tipsheet 5), so with the extra 50 degrees mentioned by Zeldazog that would take it to 880C, so would rule out the Firebox 14 (my previous favourite)
My wife has also mentioned she would like to work with metal clays. Bronze needs 800C and Copper 920C, so it looks like Bronze Clay would be OK but not Copper Clay.
When I did my week long course a few years back, I enjoyed the casting and fusing, didn't particularly like the bead making and realised that blowing would be well beyond me.
Cheers
Had a reply to some questions on the GFK kilns on ebay. Apparently they are nothing to do with Vesta kilns in Turkey and are indeed made in the UK.
My Kilns as advertised on Ebay are made by myself. No association with Vesta Kilns.
The GFK Label is Glass Fusion Kiln.
The Kiln is supplied with controller ST222A with has 9 programmable recipes.
It does indeed run from domestic 13 ampere plug points. Maximum current draw 12.86 ampere full load.
Kiln furniture included in the Goodies Starter Pack are shelving 2 x 200 x 200 ceramic fibre boards props, Ceramic Firing paper 1, 2 and 5 mm A4 samples for use, 100 gramme of Potters Batt for priming shelving and Kiln base.
For reviews, please look to facebook.com/cedesigns749, my Kilns are in use from Lands End to John-0-Groats and beyond to Orkney to Spain and Cyprus.
There is unfortunately a surcharge to the Highlands, but as with Europe, Northern Ireland and the Highlands The balance in excess of normal free shipping is charged to buyer.
I have to speak up for Cherry Heaven. No, he isn't an internet whizz, but when I spoke to him over the phone he could not have been more than helpful.
Have you considered Nunnyrose's ad on the forum? I think you could get a very good kiln for your money from her/him. This is the kiln: http://www.creativeglassshop.co.uk/product/31232/paragon-gl24-standard-glass-kiln.html
and there's a lot of float appropriate stuff too.
Please excuse me interfering, I was just struck by two posters who were wanting and selling pretty much the same thing! :P
Thanks :), I'd looked at that but a 6.6kw kiln at 140kg is a little more than I could cope with at the moment.
Thanks for all the advice, there was a lot to consider, but in the end I decided on the Firebox8. The reasons were that it reaches higher temperatures, it comes with kiln furniture and heating is on all 4 sides and is well within budget. Although I'll be able to do some fusing, my main emphasis needs to be on casting and if I want to do more fusing later then I can get a more suitable kiln.
Thanks again to everyone, notably Fluffstar, Moira and especially Zeldazog for the advice.
Glad we've helped.
One thing we've learned along the way on this forum is actually, there is no *one* kiln that truly is good for everything. If it's great and economical for glass fusing, it's not suitable for garage annealing (annealing as you go) for lamp-workers. Many glass fusing kilns aren't deep enough for anything but small drops. Bigger kilns, great, but take an age to fill, and cost more to install, and of course run (although all kilns are surprisingly economical) and need bigger, more specialised space.
So, choosing the thing you want to do the most is a great idea, and that is a great starter kiln. If and when you decide go bigger, deeper or whatever, kilns hold their price well, and you will find someone wanting to take it off your hands if you don't want to keep it. I sold my Hot Start Pro on when I got a Hobbyfuser, at the time I shared a studio and didn't have space. I often wished I'd kept it for busy times. When I upgrade to the next size up, I will definitely have to sell the Hobbyfuser, I'll be a big boy territory and will then probably be in the market for a small kiln for samples and tests.
In an ideal world I would have several kilns to suit everything I might want to do, as I think I need *at least* three to fulfill all of my ideals!
Have fun, and don't forget to come back and share with us what you've made ;D ;D
Quote from: Zeldazog on May 02, 2016, 08:08:30 PM
Have fun, and don't forget to come back and share with us what you've made ;D ;D
Definitely! ;D
Dont' know if you've ordered yet, and whether this is convenient, but it comes in your budget, that's just been posted here on the forum today
http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=47128.msg700716#msg700716
I saw that and looked at it with a wry smile crossing my face. However, the logistics of collecting stuff from Plymouth and getting it to Fort William would be nightmarish. 3 days travelling for two people and loading as well as van hire would outweigh any savings (assuming I won the eBay auction).
Quote from: smudges dad on May 03, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
I saw that and looked at it with a wry smile crossing my face. However, the logistics of collecting stuff from Plymouth and getting it to Fort William would be nightmarish. 3 days travelling for two people and loading as well as van hire would outweigh any savings (assuming I won the eBay auction).
Ah, yes, I didn't know where you were based.... that is quite a trek!