Hi can you tell me what's happening here?
Before I start trying to make beads I'm checking out the annealing process with a little kiln I've made and I produced range of different diameter beads out of Effetre 104 CoE Clear 591004.
I used the clear glass so I could check the beads with polarized filters and they've all annealed satisfactorily, but on this 18 mm diameter bead you can see smoky threads running around it just below the surface.
I don't think I've contaminated it but have I over heated it or is this a characteristic of the clear class?
The reason I ask is I see there's a 'Crystal clear' and the 'Clear' do you see a difference between clear and crystal clear?
All of the beads have the same 'smoky' defect but it's more noticeable on the larger ones.
I'm using a Hot-Head and propane, could it be the gas?
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/11970582924_18a6800ff5.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/11970582924/)
DSCF6307 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/11970582924/) by andy.c.davies@btinternet.com (http://www.flickr.com/people/113356215@N06/), on Flickr
18mm Ø
All advice gladly received.
Kind Regards ... Andy
Update 17th Jan 2014 ... please see the other pictures further down the thread.
1. You could be running to hot or too close to the flame.
2. Your not nipping off the first bit of the rod which tends to be a bit scummy.
3. If you are working on a 'Hot Head' ............. thats why I converted!
Most likely you are working too close to the head of the hothead, try working further out. There is a difference between clear and super clear, but it's a difference in clarity and wouldn't have caused this.
Check your torch end for dirt, with my minor I have an old kitchen knife and when the flame is lit I run it briskly over the torch end. That will probably help.
I was once told that if your glass was too close to the torch you could burn it, but have since learned that it is more to do with the flame chemistry - not sure how you can alter that on a hothead, on a minor it's about getting the balance between oxygen and propane right. :)
Cross posted. X
Andy I am very suprised that you do not already know this ;D
All of the above, plus you might be getting towards the end of your propane.
Thanks all...
I always reckon that if one person calls you a fool, you should take no notice, but if everyone calls you a fool then you probably are one.
And in this case it looks like the consensus is for this fool to keep the glass further away from the torch.
I'll check out the torch for cleanliness and have another go tomorrow.
Many thanks ... Andy
Quote from: Barnacle Bay on January 15, 2014, 10:09:18 PM
Andy I am very suprised that you do not already know this ;D
Well just to let you into a secret, I have found that with the Hot-Head I can increase the temperature reasonably significantly by temporally covering two of the air inlet holes at the back of the touch and this makes gathering a larger amount of gas quite a lot quicker.
The down side to this is it changes the combustion and that may just have something to do with it what do you think?
By the way I'm not recommending modifying the torch, it's just an observation.
... Andy
Yup, you've "burnt" it. It's what happens when you haven't quite got enough oxygen to stop the glass from "burning" or, more accurately, reducing - the metal oxides within the glass partially lose their oxides to the oxygen starved propane resulting in a darker colour or, in some cases a metallic lustre depending on the glass that you are using. It's very easy to get this result with clear glass on a hothead as there really isn't enough oxygen available to keep the oxides in the glass.
You can make better use of the oxygen that is available in the hothead by working further up in the flame. But, of course - that is SLOWER as the working temperature is lower. On the other hand you will keep the glass nice and clear. If you observe closely the next time you are making beads, if there's an area on the surface which appears to be glowing much more than everything else then that will end up as a murky smoky mark. You can pick this off with tweezers while it is still hot - but better to avoid it altogether.
Unfortunately - this is why a lot of people graduate from a hothead to a dual gas torch as it is harder to work with a hothead - you have to be much more patient.
With regard to the type of glass - Effetre always had a glass ending in "004" - and ironically known as "Cristallo" - which is "clear" in Italian but sort of implies that it is "crystal clear" in English. It's not - it's really quite scummy and can burn like a so and so. This was the glass that many of us cut our teeth on, and then a few years ago they reformulated the clear and brought out "006" which in fact is much better - though you can still burn it and make it scummy if you try hard enough. I love 006 - it's never a problem for me - though a few people choose to buy clear glass which is practically impossible to burn. Reichenbach, CIM, and Double Helix all make a 104coe clear which many say is much much easier to use. They are more expensive so I don't bother with them. I don't really understand why Effetre didn't replace 004 with 006 as both are still available and there's no much difference in price, but then, who knows how they work in Murano?
I expect you got a fair amount of 004 in your mixed bag of Effetre - next time I'd go for 006 - but if you go further up you will get a clearer clear - and yes, covering up some of the holes will actually make the "burning" problem worse.....makes it quieter, though ;)
It's getting a wee bit hot!
Still surprised you would not know this, esp from an engineering and Scientific/chemistry point of view.
But this has already been covered in older threads you reallly must run a search! Folks will jump in, but, do a search, the nswer is already there!
Thanks Sally that's very helpful.
I appreciate your positive assistance.
. . . Andy
We really must start a Redhotsal appreciation society, she is ace!!!
Andy, I've not used a hothead but understand that lots of users make a kitchen foil collar which you can leave in situ and just bring up to cover the holes when you want to deliberately reduce a glass (silver glass for instance) :)
Quote from: Margram on January 16, 2014, 09:06:55 AM
Andy, I've not used a hothead but understand that lots of users make a kitchen foil collar which you can leave in situ and just bring up to cover the holes when you want to deliberately reduce a glass (silver glass for instance) :)
Thanks Margram, what I found is with just two holes covered, it makes the difference as to whether or not I can melt 2mm Ø copper wire. The torch head runs hotter with just two holes covered but I have a hefty brass fixing that hold the neck of the torch and acts as a heat sink, I figure heat could possible affect the seals in the gas valve if it's been run straight off a MAPP cylinder for any length of time.
Thanks for the interest and useful feedback
. . . Andy
Quote from: Barnacle Bay on January 15, 2014, 10:31:19 PM
It's getting a wee bit hot!
Still surprised you would not know this, esp from an engineering and Scientific/chemistry point of view.
But this has already been covered in older threads you reallly must run a search! Folks will jump in, but, do a search, the nswer is already there!
Don't you think that's bit ungenerous?
If you do a search for 'Smokey Threads' you won't find any leads.
I think that rather than acting as a self appointed administrator if you took a leaf out of Sally's book and the other good people here and offered constructive criticism you might find the world a much nicer place.
Regards . . . Andy
Please play nice. This is a friendly site.
Ruth
sewnthings
Quote from: Andy Davies on January 16, 2014, 11:19:24 AM
Quote from: Margram on January 16, 2014, 09:06:55 AM
Andy, I've not used a hothead but understand that lots of users make a kitchen foil collar which you can leave in situ and just bring up to cover the holes when you want to deliberately reduce a glass (silver glass for instance) :)
Thanks Margram, what I found is with just two holes covered, it makes the difference as to whether or not I can melt 2mm Ø copper wire. The torch head runs hotter with just two holes covered but I have a hefty brass fixing that hold the neck of the torch and acts as a heat sink, I figure heat could possible affect the seals in the gas valve if it's been run straight off a MAPP cylinder for any length of time.
Thanks for the interest and useful feedback
. . . Andy
That is interesting and not something I had thought of - I have only just moved from a hot head with MAPP gas which I had been on for years - I know it is incedibly expensive but I was not happy at the idea of larger containers of gas in the house - I have not noticed the seal being affected but then I might not know what I was looking for! Apart from gas escaping and I'm fairly certain that was not happening.
Quote from: ruth on January 16, 2014, 01:33:48 PM
Please play nice. This is a friendly site.
Ruth
sewnthings
Thank you Ruth. As you know I'm very new to the site and I'd like to thank everyone who has made my visits here a pleasure.
I've received sound practical help and advice that I have acted on it, it's been invaluable.
And I'd like to think from the charming comments that I have received on my postings so far, that I have already made a small positive contribution myself.
I'm totally committed to complying with the rules of the site but more importantly to affording everyone the common courtesy they fully deserve, which of course I naturally expect from others.
With Kind Regards . . . Andy
Andy I actually like that smoked glass bead :) it looks like a marble.
Quote from: silkworm on January 16, 2014, 05:15:49 PM
Quote from: Andy Davies on January 16, 2014, 11:19:24 AM
Quote from: Margram on January 16, 2014, 09:06:55 AM
Andy, I've not used a hothead but understand that lots of users make a kitchen foil collar which you can leave in situ and just bring up to cover the holes when you want to deliberately reduce a glass (silver glass for instance) :)
Thanks Margram, what I found is with just two holes covered, it makes the difference as to whether or not I can melt 2mm Ø copper wire. The torch head runs hotter with just two holes covered but I have a hefty brass fixing that hold the neck of the torch and acts as a heat sink, I figure heat could possible affect the seals in the gas valve if it's been run straight off a MAPP cylinder for any length of time.
Thanks for the interest and useful feedback
. . . Andy
That is interesting and not something I had thought of - I have only just moved from a hot head with MAPP gas which I had been on for years - I know it is incedibly expensive but I was not happy at the idea of larger containers of gas in the house - I have not noticed the seal being affected but then I might not know what I was looking for! Apart from gas escaping and I'm fairly certain that was not happening.
Hi Marry.
I don't think you're likely to have any problems if you are using the gas torch as it was intended to be used by the manufactures.
The comment that you have picked up on relates to using the torch with a restricted air flow.
If you restrict the air flow into the back of the Hot-Head torch the flame burns with a shorter cone and it burns hotter.
The cool air that would normally rush into the back of the torch helps to keep the torch cool. (I doubt very much that the manufactures of the Hot-Head would approve of any modification of the design/operating conditions) but it's something that people do occasionally and it works for them and they've probably done it for years without incident.
The fact of the matter is if you reduce the air flow, the hot end of the torch will be hotter than normal and subsequently the valve seal and the hose etc may be subject to excusive heat if run for a long time.
All I'm saying is it's a safety consideration that possibly not everyone has thought about.
If you want to check for gas leaks add one drop of washing-up liquid to about three quarters of an eggcup full of warm water and with a small watercolour paint brush, paint around the places that you think could leak ie the connectors, joint and vale.
All of the gas fitting are none ferrous (wont rust) you don't need a lot of water but if there is a leak the gas will blow bubbles in the washing-up mixture and the leak will immediately obvious to you.
I hope you find that helpful.
Kind Regards ... Andy
Getting to grips with working away from the torch ...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5479/11993942996_b25c2e039f.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/11993942996/)
DSCF6310 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/11993942996/) by andy.c.davies@btinternet.com (http://www.flickr.com/people/113356215@N06/), on Flickr
Above. The two beads to the left are 'Clear' glass and the one on the right is 'Crystal Clear' glass.
I made these last night following your advice and they've come out really clear, no 'smoky threads' that may not be a big deal when I compare them with my first effort the difference is stalking.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/11993147975_9ed4a271b3.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/11993147975/)
DSCF6313 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/11993147975/) by andy.c.davies@btinternet.com (http://www.flickr.com/people/113356215@N06/), on Flickr
Above. The bead on the bottom right is made of Effetre 'Crystal Clear' glass, all of the others were made with Effertre 'Clear' glass all are CoE 104
The beads on the top row, I know now, have been 'burnt' because I was working too close to the torch.
As it happens I really prefer the 'smoky bead' as the others are boring but at least I know what I was doing wrong and how to control it.
I've still got to work on my 'puckers' and stop introducing air bubbles.
I think I might just have a look to see if I can burn a small bead to death and then try and encapsulate it in clear glass to get I a bit of both worlds.
By the way ... I can't see any difference between the 'Clear' and 'Crystal Clear' other than the price ticket. Does the 'Crystal Clear' work better with solid colours?
Or is there something else I'm missing.
Again thanks for the feedback it's a great help.
Regard . . . Andy
If you get a few rods of each, and look at one end while holding the other to a window, you'll see that the 004 is greener, the 006 bluer. The blue gives a more acceptable clear, particularly in larger gathers like marbles. (IMHO)
The 004 works 'scummier' than the 006 (it is more easy to boil it accidentally) - you will probably only notice the difference if you are working with oxy-propane. (HotHead lampworkers, can you overheat your clear?).
Also, I think the 006 has fewer inclusions (air, stones etc), but that could be my imagination. Opinions, anyone?
Sean
Thanks Sean
I've just been looking at them again are far fewer air bubbles in the 'Crystal clear' glass but that was the last one I made and I think I may have been taking it a bit slower.
So I guess I need to try it again to be sure.
... Andy
You can also use the 004 as a base glass under dearer glasses or as a stiffer base for casing with softer colours
What's the betting one day you want to recreate the burnt beads and can't! I have an earlier bead of me and can I heckers reproduce it now! X
Looking good Andy! Yes, I agree with Sean - the 004 is more prone to "scumming" - the scum being tiny air bubbles - lots of it together looks like a white trail where lots of tiny bubbles have formed. It certainly is possible to make the glass "boil" and form bubbles - you will also get scumming at the end of a freshly cut rod where bubbles are trapped from the jagged break on the rod.
Sean - I never noticed the colour difference before!
I've not seen the 004 but DH Zephyr is slightly yellowish if I remember right...
Hi all I just wanted to make sure I have control over this 'smoky' issue so what I did was made a small bead out of 'Crystal Clear' glass and I deliberately burnt the surface, (the 'Crystal Clear' seems harder to burn than the striate 'Clear' glass) and then without overheating the second layer I encapsulated it. I quite like the effect and having done that several times I now have a good feel for what it's all about.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3770/12002119834_9501acfcd9.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/12002119834/)
DSCF6327 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/12002119834/) by andy.c.davies@btinternet.com (http://www.flickr.com/people/113356215@N06/), on Flickr
Been practicing 'puckers' too ...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5507/12002064063_d4d057de8d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/12002064063/)
DSCF6325 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/113356215@N06/12002064063/) by andy.c.davies@btinternet.com (http://www.flickr.com/people/113356215@N06/), on Flickr
Hi Sally just to say thanks for the advice on the Effetre glass and the book.
I don't know what to do thirst, play with the glass or read the book and learn what I ought to be doing . . ah the agony of choice!
Thanks for looking.
All the very best . . . Andy
Nice puckers on those latest beads Andy!