I bought my second kiln a couple of months ago - Paragon Fusion 10. I've only fired it about a dozen times but already the kilnbrick is failing with a piece as big as the palm of my hand and a cm or so deep dropping out completely. It's at the point at which the lid hinges (the lid is very heavy and quite difficult to take off the safety bar easily).
I've had my Paragon Fusion 7 for over 18 months now and had no problems whatsoever.
I'm going to contact the UK supplier anyway but should I be worried? ???
A good rule of thumb with all top loaders is that the bigger and heavier the lid, the more likely it is that this type of thing will happen. At 22.5" wide opening, the fusion 10 lid is relatively large.
Most European kilns with this size of lid nowadays have some sort of assistance to ease the lift pressure for this very reason.
Best thing to do is to contact your supplier and see how it goes.
I've used fire cement from Wickes ( a fairly local builders merchants) in the past to "glue" back a piece of the door brick for my big ceramic kiln. In my case I chamfered the brick (it seemed to expand slightly with the heat at 930 deg cent) since it was catching on the door when I opened it to "comb" the glass.
Yeh Pat, it is an option but in reality, you have been lucky that it has held out as 9 out of 10 repairs of this nature end in failure I'm affraid.
I didn't want to transport the kiln in the back of the car. The rear of the car got far to close to the ground for my liking when I brought it home from Essex Kilns about 20 years ago. They've come out to replace a few of the elements once when I overestimated the amount of glass I could pot melt ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D without the glass overflowing the shelf.
Sandera
You are unlucky to have crumbling brick on a kiln the size of a Fusion 7. They have quite a small lid, so not a huge amount of stress on the hinge. For fear of repeating what has already been said, I would suggest carefully cutting the brick to a sharp edge, removing any loose dust, then coat with some kiln repair cement, making sure you get none close to the element.
Best Wishes
Matt
Welcome to the crazy kiln section Matt from Hobby Cermicraft ;D
Hi Lee,
Many thanks for the welcome!
I have been scanning through the questions/topics on here to see if there is a space for my specialised knowledge, predominatelly for technical questions relating to the Paragon kiln range, (wot we sell of course!), and it seems you are the man with the answers! Your technical knowledge of kilns and the firing process that you have openly shared on here is outstanding! I bow before you sir! ;)
I'm mainly a 'ceramics' chap, (as our name would suggest), but we have been selling the Paragon range since the mid 80's which does cross over into the glass market. I hope at some point I can add to this knowledge base once I find my way around.
Best Wishes,
Matt
Well thanks you for the kind words my good fellow ;)
Jonny Hawkins I may not be, but I do like to think I know a little about kilns :D
It's always good to have specialised pockets of knowledge pal so I'm sure you will fit in fine.
Now then, can I sell you some British kilns ??? ??? :o :D
Quote from: Lee - Kilncare on January 13, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Jonny Hawkins I may not be,
and I may not be Steven Hawkins either LOL :-[ :-[ :-[ ;D
Quote from: Hobby Ceramicraft on January 13, 2012, 03:15:46 PM
Sandera
You are unlucky to have crumbling brick on a kiln the size of a Fusion 7. They have quite a small lid, so not a huge amount of stress on the hinge. For fear of repeating what has already been said, I would suggest carefully cutting the brick to a sharp edge, removing any loose dust, then coat with some kiln repair cement, making sure you get none close to the element.
Best Wishes
Matt
Hi Matt.
The problem is actually with the Paragon 10 which I've only had a very short time. My Paragon 7 is great - fired it many, many times and not had a problem. I've got some fire cement (thanks Pat) and will see if I can glue it back in. Not heard back from the original supplier yet :-\
Sandera - sorry, I misread your initial posting. A fusion 10 makes more sense. A few years back we chose not to sell the brick lidded Fusion 10, instead we now only import the fibre lidded model. Significantly more expensive, but with a wide chamber like the Fusion 10 has, and with the element above in the lid, I am sure it is pays off in the long run. The last thing you need (especially for firing wide sheets of glass), is troublesome flecks of brick dust floating down onto your work.
I quoted a lady just before Christmas for a replacement fibre lid for a Fusion 10 direct from the US, who had just bought a brick lid model second hand, the price,.... £730 excluding VAT! Mind you £300 of that was air freight charges from America!
Lee - Never say never, but I'm quite happy with the Paragon range at the moment! Also, having sold them since the mid eighties, I have got to know their makeup quite well; super reliable kilns that allow me to sleep well at night,..... just like yours I do not doubt ;)
Matt
Hi Matt.
I'm not sure if you're with Hobby Ceramic Craft but, if you are, I bought my Fusion 7 via you. It's been a smashing little kiln. When I decided to buy a second bigger kiln I initially settled on the GL24 but I had real trouble sourcing it in the UK. I'm beginning to wish i'd persevered.
With regards to the Fusion 10 I'm quite surprised that the bricks are deteriorating so quickly. It's a bit worrying to be honest.
Sandera
I am indeed. Hobby Ceramicraft is our little ship, and today I wear the captain's hat!
I would say, just be careful you do not spend too much time or money on the kiln you have bought. Hopefully you got it at a great price anyway, but you could end up spending more on it than perhaps it may deserve. (so says a chap who only sells new kilns! ;))
Best Wishes
Matt
Quote from: Hobby Ceramicraft on January 18, 2012, 05:46:32 PM
Sandera
I am indeed. Hobby Ceramicraft is our little ship, and today I wear the captain's hat!
I would say, just be careful you do not spend too much time or money on the kiln you have bought. Hopefully you got it at a great price anyway, but you could end up spending more on it than perhaps it may deserve. (so says a chap who only sells new kilns! ;))
Best Wishes
Matt
Argghhh!! It was a new kiln!!
If it's new and you only recently got it, why aren't you going back to the original supplier? Any supplier worth their salt should be willing to help you.
I can't speak for Matt here, him being new and all, but you only have to read the forums to see the kind of aftercare you get from Kilncare, and I can vouch for ongoing support from Warm Glass too.
As for a GL24, I've found at least 3 UK based suppliers....?
Quote from: Zeldazog on January 18, 2012, 07:52:05 PM
If it's new and you only recently got it, why aren't you going back to the original supplier? Any supplier worth their salt should be willing to help you.
I can't speak for Matt here, him being new and all, but you only have to read the forums to see the kind of aftercare you get from Kilncare, and I can vouch for ongoing support from Warm Glass too.
As for a GL24, I've found at least 3 UK based suppliers....?
Well I have emailed (it as neither Kilncare or Warm Glass) the supplier but had no response yet. Admittedly I'm being tardy and should be chasing this up - but I am going to ring the company tomorrow. Re GL24 - the lead time was 3 months and I couldn't wait that long. Wish i had though.
Quote from: Sandera on January 18, 2012, 08:15:50 PM
Admittedly I'm being tardy and should be chasing this up - but I am going to ring the company tomorrow. Re GL24 - the lead time was 3 months and I couldn't wait that long. Wish i had though.
You shouldn't really have to be chasing them up..... hope they sort it for you soon.
Didn't realise the lead time was so long on GL24, I didn't see anything, but it was only a cursory glance.
Just a quick thought, if you have a brick that starts to crumble instead of breaking, you can buy single replacement bricks from a ceramics supplier.
Hi Zeldadog, I'm sure any good supplier would acknowledge, selling a kiln is a big responsibity, after care and support is essential. This forum is clear proof of that; happy customers tell their friends, who in turn become your next customers. Hopefully the super people who have bought a kiln from us over the past 20+ years would have nice things to say about our after sales service.... ;D
Sandera - So Sorry, I don't know where I go the impression it was a s/h kiln. ??? If it was a new kiln, as others have suggested, speak to the supplier before you consider doing any maintenance on it yourself, that is what the warranty is there for.
We choose not to hold the GL24 in stock, as it is so 'Customisable', if we kept one in stock, you can be sure it would be the wrong one. This may be why other suppliers do not hold in stock as well?
Best Wishes
Matt
Quote from: Hobby Ceramicraft on January 19, 2012, 10:40:12 AM
Hi Zeldadog, I'm sure any good supplier would acknowledge, selling a kiln is a big responsibity, after care and support is essential. This forum is clear proof of that; happy customers tell their friends, who in turn become your next customers. Hopefully the super people who have bought a kiln from us over the past 20+ years would have nice things to say about our after sales service.... ;D
No worries, I have heard good things about yourselves too (you lot were in my sights when I was looking for kilns), I just don't have personal experience!
Mmm....here's an update. The manufacturer is saying that the kilnbrick problems shouldn't impact on the functionality of the kiln and at this stage I probably agree given the size and location of the damage. However I think that the problem could get worse as time goes on as the brick is crumbling at the hinge and the metal fixing is already partly exposed (metal expands and contracts with heat so it seems likely to me that the brick will continue to crumble under this stress). The lid is heavy and its a real struggle to get the lid bracket on and off.
The person I traded through here in the UK tells me that the company is sending across something to seal the broken bricks - but I'm a bit worried that if I fix the problem this time and it gets worse I will have negated any legal rights to a refund. I've also lost faith in the UK trader as he has lied to me.
So my question is this - is it normal for a new kiln to start to deteriorate after only 8 firings?
Should I fix the damage or should I pursue a claim for a full refund on the grounds that the kiln is not of a satisfactory quality? What would you do?
Has anyone got this kiln and had similar experiences?
Thanks
Sandera
O.K. this one could get messy so without either me inspecting or seeing pictures, I think it best that I now keep out of this one.
Any item purchased should be 'fit for purpose'. A crumbling lid after a few firings does not sound right.
I would expect the supplier to, in the first instance, inspect damage and then comment on appropriate action - one that doesn't expect you to carry out any form of repairs yourself (easy way to null and void your warranty). If this was not forth coming I would then expect my money back in full.
Hope you get this sorted
Ruth
I have a Kilncare FK4, 7 years old no sign of cracking, crumbling or any other damage.
I also have a Cromartie xxx ceramics kiln, much higher temperatures, and again after 10 years use no signs of wear and tear. Both heavily used by a rather clumsy owner ::).
It does sound that your supplier won't give any better after service in the future than now so could be time to get a refund before they are able to refuse one.
Plenty of decent UK suppliers who have a good reputation to protect and who would be only too pleased to help with a proper replacement.
Pete
Thank you all for your support. I really am struggling with this and my 'relationship' with the supplier is deteriorating at a rate of knots! It's a shame because good service would have guaranteed that I would be a returning customer.
He has taken no notice of my concerns given the newness of the kiln and denies that there is an intrinsic fault. In fact he says in an earlier email that: in my experience, most firebrick damage is caused by dropping the lid. When I challenged this he says he wasn't implying that I had dropped the lid just stating a fact. He's a real slippery customer!
I've continued to voice my concerns about the weight of the lid and I've enquired after an assisted lid. Today he emailed me the following message after he had contacted the manufacturer:
the factory said: We send the lite lid already assembled. Just need to drill holes and mount onto kiln and take off old hinge.if you want one, it's 97.50 inc VAT and delivery.
So if I want a kiln that's easy to open and close I'll have to fork out another £100 for it. I think I'll sleep on it.
Sandera
Ooooo veiled clues in that post. I think I know what you have and where you got it from.
I don't get how some companies operate. I would have thought it would have been better to replace the kiln and sell the chipped one as second hand. Ok, you don't make as much as the supplier or even draw level but one unhappy customer who has access to a forum can do more damage than the £100 loss the supplier may make on a kiln. That is our approach to these kind of matters.
Odd, the same supplier may well think nothing of chucking £300 or £400 a year at google ads for instance, when much better press can be gained by just looking after people.
Good luck
I do not have enough expertise with kilns to comment on what happened but like any other purchase it must be fit for purpose. You might get help challenging the supplier through your local CAB or from trading standards. I think you can accept a repair without destroying your chances of refund/replacement if the repair is unsuccessful.
Mary