I managed to get some really beautiful pinky purple Kalypso beads, and thought I had cracked it as every time I was getting the same result consistantly.
Now I have just started on my other rod and it's all gone horribly wrong - everything has a murky brown hue to it.
At first I was a bit upset as I thought I had lost my touch - then I realised that it coincided with starting the new rod.
Has anybody else experianced this? What (an expensive) pain in the bum
I have made loads of scummy beads with this new rod over the past week, and last night tried out my tiny short end from the first rod and hey presto a pretty pinky purple one again >:(
Sussed it - it was a dodgy rod for sure, I found another which works fine too.
The bad one had a very thin dark core running through it, in comparison to the others
Very strange ??? ???
I don't find DH to be at all consistent, though it may be that batches get mixed at the UK supplier. I've had numerous bundles of Clio, some of which work and some of which go a snot colour instead of pink, I've had Pandora rods that just don't work at all, numerous failures in fact.
I have also found some inconsistency......at first I thought I was just incompetent! ANd I only had one rod of Pandora - never got it to do anything - so I decided I wouldn't buy any more!
My original Pandora was a cloudy green and worked brilliantly and then the next time I bought it it was a clear green. The clear green didn't do anything. It is annoying because DH is certainly not cheap. But what do you do? Obviously the "fault" lies with DH but if you buy through a UK supplier is it their responsibility?
I fell out majorly with a UK supplier because of a glass which didn't do what it was meant to so I gave up trying, but I have often been given glass which isn't up to scratch, including Multicolour which didn't work and 006, a whole bundle of which has scratches running up the first two inches. >:(
My Pandora is clear green....I also can't get Marmorin to do what it should - found two examples where paople have been able to on the web but no-one on here has managed it, so it must be the glass - expensive and disappointing! I think that the retailer should show that it does what it should and if it doesn't, then they should take it up with their supplier! I doubt that will happen though ???
I have a bundle of Pandora which I may just as well use as trans green, I've tried every possible annealing schedule with it. I think I may email DH themselves, it has to be their responsibility. Actually, I may have bought this lot direct if memory serves.
Quote from: Lakelady on December 08, 2011, 09:41:19 AM
My Pandora is clear green....I also can't get Marmorin to do what it should - found two examples where paople have been able to on the web but no-one on here has managed it, so it must be the glass - expensive and disappointing! I think that the retailer should show that it does what it should and if it doesn't, then they should take it up with their supplier! I doubt that will happen though ???
Well, speaking as a retailer, I certainly wouldn't want to be selling glass which wasn't what it claimed to be. We rely on our customers to raise problems, and we then pass those concerns on to the supplier. We have replaced bad glass with good in the past, and no doubt will do so again...there is, however, a bit of a problem with silver glasses. We stock quite a lot of glass, and can't test it all to make sure it works - not without passing the cost of testing time on to the customer, who would rightfully resent paying the extra, even if we had the time spare to test in the first place. Rather, we rely on our suppliers giving us good product - not unreasonable, I'm sure you'll agree. On top of this issue, we all know that working silver glass is a skill, acquired with practice and in some cases, not a little luck. So, some users will be failing to get results because they have not yet hit on the right technique to make the glass 'sing'. Indeed, this is where 'supplier testing' can fall down - who's to say
I can get a glass to do what it is supposed to do?
The long and short of this is: with any product, if it doesn't perform as advertised, your first point of contact is your supplier. As far as glass is concerned, if they get a number of complaints about a single batch, a supplier will know that it is worthwhile investigating that batch. If the batch is faulty, the manufacturer is responsible for replacement. We have done this in the past (with a bad batch of Multicolour... ;)), and of course would do so again.
Sean
Thanks for that ;D. I do see where you are coming from. It would be unreasonable to expect each batch to be tested :o but I think there are a lot of folk who have had consistently poor results with particular colours - such as Pandora and Marmorin. If there are batch differences, shouldn't they be picked up by supplier quality control?? In any case, it would be good to know that retailers would have a little test of the ones complained about, so that those who may not be able to get the glass to 'sing' know that they just need to work on their technique!!
Is the issue, from the retailers point of view, that there are no complaints about the glass? I know I didn't complain about my one rod of Pandora!
Quote from: Lakelady on December 08, 2011, 03:42:07 PM
Thanks for that ;D. I do see where you are coming from. It would be unreasonable to expect each batch to be tested :o but I think there are a lot of folk who have had consistently poor results with particular colours - such as Pandora and Marmorin. If there are batch differences, shouldn't they be picked up by supplier quality control??
They should be picked up by manufacturer quality control; I guess that's what you meant?
QuoteIn any case, it would be good to know that retailers would have a little test of the ones complained about, so that those who may not be able to get the glass to 'sing' know that they just need to work on their technique!!
And, if I can't make it Sing either how do we know the glass is at fault? Maybe I just need to work on my technique...Surely what we need is an expert, independent silver-glass user to provide a testing service. Volunteers, anyone? :) More seriously, I would think that it is a lot more reliable a signifier if a number of people across the skills spectrum, using a particular batch of glass, reported problems. That is, in fact, what told us that the dodgy multicolour was dodgy.
QuoteIs the issue, from the retailers point of view, that there are no complaints about the glass? I know I didn't complain about my one rod of Pandora!
We certainly haven't had complaints about pandora, and we don't stock marmorin. If we receive complaints about glass, we attempt to resolve the issue. How we go about that depends on the problem.
Sean
I spread my Pandora about a bit so others could test it, with the same very disappointing results. So, worth contacting them do you think Sean?
This is a very interesing subject and a difficult one to solve. I too have had several 'bad' batches of DH silver glass. When I was starting out, I did try every DH glass, some with good results and some bad. After many attempts at the bad stuff and after many hours researching how other lampworkers used that glass, I gave up. Sadly, that meant that since then, I have avoided using this glass, and still do not use it. I then watch someone else use the same glass and get fantastic results. This actually happened to me with Clio so I decided to buy another batch and hey presto, it worked!
My point here is that if you are experimenting with a DH glass and are unfortunate enough to get a 'bad' batch, how do you know it's a bad batch? The answer is, you don't know. This is the problem. The only way of confirming whether a batch of glass is good or bad is for someone who is experienced in using that glass, to test it. I am sure that I would spot a dodgy rod of Kalypso immediately, as I use this glass all the time, every torching session.
Personally, my opinion is that ALL DH glass should be batch tested by DH to verify that it is indeed good. Surely quality control lies with the manufacturers always. Anything other than a good batch can then still be sold as a second quality, odd lot, whatever you wish to call it, with a description of how it is different to the original glass.
I simply don't think that it is fair and acceptable for a lampworker trying out a new DH glass, to be sold a duff batch, especially when they will have no idea whether it is good or bad.
Well said :)
Soooooooooooooo, who's our DH expert, particularly in Pandora? Anyone wanna volunteer to test the stuff, having had previous fantabulous results?
Quote from: Pegasus on December 08, 2011, 10:09:31 PM
Personally, my opinion is that ALL DH glass should be batch tested by DH to verify that it is indeed good. Surely quality control lies with the manufacturers always. Anything other than a good batch can then still be sold as a second quality, odd lot, whatever you wish to call it, with a description of how it is different to the original glass.
I simply don't think that it is fair and acceptable for a lampworker trying out a new DH glass, to be sold a duff batch, especially when they will have no idea whether it is good or bad.
I agree but then when the glass is being sold by a reseller DH will say that they don't know how/what the reseller is selling the glass. i.e. are they mixing the batches up/splitting them or whatever so they probably won't go along with this. The other thing is that DH make so many odd lots or test batches that the likelihood of being able to identify which rod is which will be pretty difficult. Personally every time I buy DH, as much as I love it I never get a colour that is the same as it was the last time I bought it and I always consider it as "lottery glass". I really do.
In many ways I quite enjoy that - you have to remember that glass manufacture is a bit like cooking - it's never going to be the same "taste" twice. If you consider Double Helix they're a tiny little outfit so the glass is going to be "quirky" at best - they can't possibly have the quality controls that a larger factory will have. Look at CIM - they've got quite a few problems with glass being compatible right now, compare them to Effetre who have been going for years and years. The Venetians have got compatibility pretty good (they've had a few centuries to work on it), but let's face it even Effetre struggle to get Rubino Oro the same with every batch. Well, I've never had an identical batch, at least.
I've come to the conclusion that that's the way it is with glass - you just have to work with the problems. Although I have to say it's very annoying when the glass doesn't "sing" (or even "croak") and I've wasted a fair amount of money on duff designer glass over the years that doesn't do what it says on the tin. Mind you, if the manufacturers were volunteering to give a refund for all the shite glass that's been fobbed off on me over the years I'll be right up there at the top of the queue!
By the way, Pandora is pretty easy - you won't see any obvious change until it's gone in the kiln but if you pull the glass out after about an hour it should have gone very dark. If it's staying belligerently on minty green, you can bake it all you like but it ain't going to budge.
So it looks like it's just pot luck then! Luckily, I have had nice results with most DH glass but I won't buy Pandora again (and will now contact the retailer I purchased Marmorin from). I still think that quality control should reside with the manufacturer - it really shouldn't be a case of 'oh well, never mind' when it doesn't perform consistently - that wouldn't be accepeted in other industries. If a solution can be found, I would love to know about it! ;D
Sal i'm afraid i have to disagree with you and find that if DH is producing glass that doesn't do what it is supposed to, it should be on their heads, no excuses about resellers etc, if a customer has bought one of their products and is not getting the same results from one rod to the next, using the same technique, that is their problem! I work in manufacturing and if any product we make is ever wrong the customer returns it to us and we have to provide replacements, as such we have stringent quality control checks in place, last week i rejected 600+ plus parts that we have made for us because they were non conforming, they get sent back and the company who make them have to provide replacement parts, thats just the way manufacturing works, if you can't make a product that meets the correct standard time and time again then you shouldn't make it because you just end up with upset customers with bad product.
Whie you say Effetre have problems making rubino the same from one batch to another it still always does what it is supposed to at the end of the day, i may have had batches that were slightly different looking in rod form but they still do what you expect them too. If you look at Heather's thread about CIM Creamsicle, she has been offered replacement glass by CIM for a product that wasn't correct, i would expect this from any company who make and sell anything, admitted we all know silver glass is more difficult to produce but that is why we pay a premium price for it, if i'm paying top price for a product i would expect it to be of the highest quality.
Just my 2 cents ;) ;D
This is an interesting one. I used to use loads and loads of silver glass and nearly always got good results (mainly with Triton, Aurae and Terranova and some of the Precision ones like Black Pearl and Sacha's Silver). Somehow over the years, those results have become more variable as new glass has come along and often I don't always quite know what I am going to get. I put it down to me and perhaps having a much hotter torch and have used them less and less, other than the really reliable ones. I find Clio a complete nightmare. Maybe we should speak out more than just assuming it's us who are duff!
Kazx
I also agree that it has to be down to the manufacturer - a reseller is their customer too. With silver glass though, it is often a case of whether or not one has 'the touch' for each individual glass. Clio for example, I find that one easy to use and get similar results each time. Terranova, not a chance, that one is a mystery to me. Precision and TAG glasses took a long time for me to get anything from at all, and even now I have to 'master' (I use the term very very loosely ;D) each different glass produced by them. And batches can sometimes differ from previous ones, needing a slightly different working technique from previously.
Oh, and I bow to anybody who can produce anything pretty with Aurae. I have a single pretty bead from about 8 rods worth!
@ Sal - I have cooked the minty green Pandora forever :(
Okay - I know it's strange for ME to be defending the manufacturer.....actually I'm not at all and I agree with you Gemma in principle. I worked in the printing industry for twenty years and had absolutely no worries about returning duff product.
BUT this is not a straightforward situation. We're buying from a US supplier who usually (not always) ships to a third party reseller. In the case of CIM, the product is made in China, sold to a supplier who then resells it to the UK supplier.
The reseller may mix batches up - let's face it, who always has their glass delivered in nicely labelled bundles? I once had two bundles of dark and light ivory sent to me and since neither of them was labelled it was a 'mare to sort out. So, you don't know what batch of DH you're getting unless you order it directly from DH. And I would say batches are mixed up - not in a sinister or underhand way, but purely in the way that stuff gets mixed up.
So, I've had bundles of Clio that have been great for two or three rods and then one rod wimps out. Trouble is, you don't necessarily realise it's a duff one until you're half way through it. And as others have said - if you are new to DH you don't necessarily think that it's the rod - it must be something you're doing? But then, how can it be that there a duff one, if they're all from the same batch?
So, what do you do - send the duff one back to DH or complain to the reseller? Note to self: don't harass the reseller - they don't like it very much........ >:(
The real problem is TRACEABILITY. We buy glass with no batch number and no traceability. So we can't say for certain what rods stink and what rods work. It's not a simple procedure.
And for "faults" where do you draw the line? For example - here: http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33719.msg555326#msg555326 when is orange NOT orange. (As it turns out when it's yellow!)
MAYBE - instead of getting lampworkers demooing the same old techniques to other lampworkers at the Flame Off, we should take a bit of control and invite the manufacturers to come over and explain all about the processes of making glass, and quality control, and then we can have a more informed debate on this? If that were to happen I for one would get off my arse and attend.
This is making me feel a bit better. I am far from proficient in using DH glass but have found one rod works and the next might not so I get despondent thinking I can't do the same thing twice (or more). Perhaps it is not all down to me being duff at this?
It's not straight forward .... but I have to agree with Bev.
And while there is a margin for error, you still expect glass to work within a certain parameter..... if you buy a lemon cake you expect it to taste of lemons, it might not be exactly the same each time, but pretty much it should be.
In my day job I work in the food industry .. we supply drinks to M&S, Tesco etc tec ... and all our products are tested .. each and every batch (they're even temp abused to see reactions) .. I run taste panels. And while there can be a little difference (allowing for seasonality and blend of fruits) each batch has to meet a set of pre defined quality attributes .... if they don't then the product gets pulled .... and usually sent to The Company Shop (where there is nothing "wrong" with it as such!).
So while silver glass will vary from batch to batch (and your working conditions may also vary) ... you should pretty much expect to get colour reactions within reason if you are working it right. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it won't be 100% the same but you shouldn't get poo colours and put up with it. If it's not right .. sell it as seconds or don't sell it at all. It certainly shouldn't be sold as first class merchandise!
And I've had Rubino glass with a high gold content ... if it had just a little too much heat it went brown .. so I had to use it up in small beads ... it was a PITA.
You don't have to give the resellers a hard time ... but you can let them know. I have in the past, and I've also contacted the manufacturer direct and I've always had a positive outcome. ;D
Ohhh look what I started! :o
No, it's good to have these discussions. This is a forum for bead makers rather than a forum to admire fluffy kittens. There should be more discussion about what we like or don't like even if the subject isn't always what some people might want to hear. For all those who lurk - I bet you're often thinking what only a few are prepared to say on here.
I know what you mean, I actually considered deleting my thread just after I made post as I thought it may have sounded a bit too grumbly!
;D
I agree that it's good to speak up (I am always getting into hot-water and often have to reign myself in! ;D)...
In the same vein as others, I used to work in the pharma industry, who you can imagine have very strict quality controls - now I wouldn't expect the criteria for glass to be sa stringent, as there is no need but there does need to be realistic pass/fail criteria, so I for one, will be contacting my suppliers when I experience a problem (it may just be that there is a trick that I don't know about - hence my post re MArmorin a while back) and if it is a batch issue, then I would expect my supplier to take it up with the manufacturer. From reading other threads on here, the manufacturers do seem happy to at least investigate - after all, if they didn't want to put things right then people would soon stop buying their products!
I would love to know if ANYONE has had a satisfactory result with Marmorin? I certainly havn't and it is an expensive white elephant in my glass rack probably never going to get used.
p.s I never have a problem with Clio, although the last batch of rods I got were a strange green colour.
Quote from: Princess Peggy on December 10, 2011, 02:43:02 PM
I would love to know if ANYONE has had a satisfactory result with Marmorin? I certainly havn't and it is an expensive white elephant in my glass rack probably never going to get used.
p.s I never have a problem with Clio, although the last batch of rods I got were a strange green colour.
I have even posted on the online blogs where someone got a good result (think it was Dragonjools) but got no reply and as far as I know, the post wasn't approved, so I will definately be speaking to Martin or Emma to see what they think! I actually think the pale blue you get if you just melt normally is quite nice, especially when etched but would rather have got what the picture showed!!
I don't have a problem with any of the others either, apart from that rod of Pandora!
Quote from: Princess Peggy on December 10, 2011, 02:43:02 PM
I would love to know if ANYONE has had a satisfactory result with Marmorin? I certainly havn't and it is an expensive white elephant in my glass rack probably never going to get used.
p.s I never have a problem with Clio, although the last batch of rods I got were a strange green colour.
Mine were a strange green colour this time and were blue the time before, curious!! I have Marmorin but in stringers which I bought a while back already made,from the USA and they have been lovely! I don't have any thick rods of it so can't comment on those.
Re Sal...I lurk a lot and I read everything everyone writes, whether I agree or not.
I love the fact that experienced lampworkers will share good and bad on here so we can address any problems we have, new or not new.
Thank you everyone, Corinne x
Quote from: Redhotsal on December 09, 2011, 10:14:44 AM
MAYBE - instead of getting lampworkers demooing the same old techniques to other lampworkers at the Flame Off, we should take a bit of control and invite the manufacturers to come over and explain all about the processes of making glass, and quality control, and then we can have a more informed debate on this? If that were to happen I for one would get off my arse and attend.
What a brilliant Idea..... I would be interested. I always ask why (Did'nt stop when I got passed 5) :o when I am told some thing and I usually find things easier if I know why I need to do something as well as what I have to do..... Just my 2p's worth... ;D ;D ;D
I love the idea of manufacturers coming to the flame off. At the recent warm glass curious sale a lady from bullseye gave a slide show and talk about how their glass was made and tested for compatibility and colour. Very informative and I brought a load of curious glass knowing it would have some intresting non standard colours but still the same coe.
Sue, I got lovely results from the Pandora you sent me * ducks and runs to hide* I didn't work it too long and I flame struck it, rather than kiln striking.
I also really like Marmorin. :-\ I haven't yet tried reducing it to bring the copper to the surface (which is what I assume is meant by not getting it to work). I would recommend trying it as a base for silver glass :) Or you can send it to me! ;)