I feel honoured to ask the first silly newbie question!! ;D
OK So, I am off to B&Q in a tick to get gas for my torch which arrived yesterday :D :D :D. I know I need to get MAPP gas, but is it that straightforward, will I walk in to B&Q, and find it's obvious what I am after? Are there different sizes, connectors etc? I'm worried I wont know what to get, and will end up with the wrong thing!!
Thanking you muchly!
I'm on a HH but got a kit from Tuffnells so I could run it off bulk gas so I wasn't shelling out for mapp all the time. Doesn't answre your question though, does it?! Sorry :)
it comes in a yellow bottle, it'll be with the welding torches and gas
hehe not quite but it's ok! ?;D
and i can recomend the bulk kit too ;D
Okey Dokey, Yellow Bottle. ?I knew vaguely where I was going as I use a blow torch from B&Q for soldering, but I can't recall ever seeing MAPP gas.
Cheers Caroline ?:)
good luck ;D, i hate B&Q
Quote from: Caroline on January 04, 2007, 04:10:22 PM
good luck ;D, i hate B&Q
it's run by monkeys. not even trained ones at that! no-one i've ever seen working there seems to enjoy their job!
yeah it's really easy, the yellow one, and it says MAPP on it, and there sould only be one size!!
:)
ooooo, i'm going bulk soon, i cannot wait!
bulk opens a whole new world Anna, no worring about gas running out
Steph, i know what you mean :)
Quote from: annasjewellerybox on January 04, 2007, 04:13:26 PM
yeah it's really easy, the yellow one, and it says MAPP on it, and there sould only be one size!!
:)
ooooo, i'm going bulk soon, i cannot wait!
Reckon I can manage that then, thanks!
If you struggle at B&Q, then most plumbers merchants will also stock MAPP canisters... although I can't vouch for their professionalism when dealing with us women... LOL... they do have a habit of thinking we know nowt.... LOL
Let's show 'em eh ? ;)
Les xx
hehe, i'm sure you will,
i like to strut in,
past all the men ponderng what to get,
pick up enough bottles to cause alarm,
and then strutt out
(well obviously i have to stop to pay for them!)
thats what i used to do as well
the BF kept the car running too for a quick gettaway (after paying of course)
Ha, yeah, I have had a few incidents where I have been treated like I have half a brain in B&Q. ?The men there assume when me and my husbang go in to buy stuff it is only him that will be using it which isn't necessarily the case in our house. ?I remember one man selling us boarding for the loft, looking at Graham and saying, "This'll keep the little lady busy wont it". ?I gave him such an evil look, his voice went all funny and he went, "oh, s-sorry madam!".
it's the same in most shops, i remember looking for a digital camera and the bloke in the shop was telling the BF all the functions on it
BF was looking blank, he didn't have a clue what the bloke was saying, when he finished i told him i'd buy it off the internet cheaper, at least then i wouldn't be treated like a half whit!!!
The look on his face was priceless ;D
nice one Caroline! I'm sure we've all had similar treatment like when I took MY car in for an MOT & went to pick it up & the guy was talking to my bro instead of me, even though I was the one asking the questions. Humph!
That sounds about right. Until the 16th Jan I am an IT Manager, and the nasty external IT bods who we have to entertain always walk past me and start talking to Dan who I manage, assuming he's in charge cos he's male. Dan's wicked though, he'll always say,"You'll have to ask my boss" and pass them over to me for a nice apology before I help them!
...oh and back on subject i meant to say, got the gas, made a beady thing, I like to call it a blob on a stick, in fact there is 2. They are sitting in vermiculite. Before I do anymore, I think I am going to read through my books again! :)
What gas do you use with the bulk kit? Just propane?
What do people reckon to the HH in general? I was taught on a Bobcat (with seperate O2/ Propane tanks) and was told I'd hate the HH. Only prob. is storage for the gas and budget are forcing me to look at the HH. ???
HELP!!
HH is a good starter torch, i love mine
yeah, with the bulk kit you just use propane,
i love my HH,
yes it's noisy, i'm still using mapp at the moment and the pressure drops, and i only have 45mins of beading time at a time,
however it melts glass and i can afford it
:)
Wow!
Thanks for such quick answers!
I think I might go ahead and get a HH. Just got to decide who to get it from now... :o
Another quick question... Actually, I'll start a new topic for it...
I was taught on a minor burner but have to bead in the kitchen. I used a HH on bulk propane and I can't say I notice the 'slowness' I was warned about. I love it.
If you're interested in setting it up for bulk fuel I got the whole kit from Martin at Tufnells. EVerything was put together. I just had to insert hook one end up to the propane tank and the other to the torch. The gauge and flashback arrestor were already fitted so it was really simple.
That's great, thanks.
I'll email Martin in the next couple of days.
Quote from: handmadeheaven.biz on January 04, 2007, 04:11:28 PM
Quote from: Caroline on January 04, 2007, 04:10:22 PM
good luck ;D, i hate B&Q
it's run by monkeys. not even trained ones at that! no-one i've ever seen working there seems to enjoy their job!
>coughs loudly< hehe ;D I used to work at Bristols first B & Q tripod store.....it was a brilliant job and we had some great laughs (back in the early eighties). It certainly has changed..... and I now avoid it like the plague!
Jenx
I quite often had a problem getting Mapp gas from B&Q but could always get if from Halfords (but dearer) and eventually ordered it online from Screwfix. Order six cans and delivery is free.
Helen
OK - thanks for that - actually we have an actual screwfix shop where I live so I may have to check out their pricing.
cor, ?1.50 cheaper per can - shall be buying it from there from now on! thanks Helen!
Yep - Halfords do it and if you can't find it in B+Q you may have to go to B+Q Depot. The top of the bottle is a 1 inch thread and the bottle is about 12inch long and is almost always yellow though I have seen black ones. If you see blue cans they're propane.
You'll rip through a Mapp cylinder in a couple of sessions so it's a pricely option. They also lose pressure easily so you may need to stand the base of the can in warm water to regain the pressure.
Go for bulk as soon as you can - it's a gazillion times cheaper and much easier to use - Martin has everything you'll need. I never really noticed much difference between Mapp in cylinder and propane in bulk. Don't go for propane in small size though as you'll have a lot of trouble keeping your colours true (not enough oxygen in the mix). Go for a hothead - they're great little torches and you'll always have a back up if you progress onto the bigger torches.
The only drawback is the damn noise they make!
Well, when I can actually produce something decent I will look at upgrading my kit - just can't justify anything till then, sadly. If I spend any more money the husband will murder me!!
Know that feeling! My fiance is always going on at me for buying new kit!
There with you!! In fact, my husband just rolls his eyes now as soon as beads comes up... which is often... ::)
Yeah, I'm not one for cheap hobbies! First silversmithing, now beading - but they are so well matched! :D
Well my hubby's all but given up on me too - he caught me looking at Passing the Flame on Ebay earlier, shoulda seen his face when he saw the price..... ::)
I think it's a case of 'La la la...' 'Click', 'Oops, did I just acidentally buy that?!' ::)
I have a solution to this (years of practise here)......
Go to Ebay.com.
Do a search for lampwork beads.
Show list "highest first"
Show "items completed".
Wheel in other half.
Say "look, you can make loads of money at this malarky. What's a couple of hundred quid for a torch?"
Watch cartoon dollar signs light up in other half's eyes.
Click the Buy Button.
Then, several years later listen to other half berate you for not earning any money and for spending all your time on the forums "chatting to yer mates".......... ;)
lol fantastic plan sal
so what is the difference between bulk and not bulk?
Using a map can Failariel is great for when you first start.
Its more expensive to use map. The cans also freeze as the pressure goes after a while and you have to place it in some warm water, usually between ya knees. The can lasts about 5 hours if your lucky...
Bulk, more pressure, cheaper and lasts longer....depending on your usage can last a month or so. Its recommended that you have your propane tank outside.......
Im sure theres more but I think Im brain dead tonight.....
Time for bed..
Jenx
my last tank of propane lasted 3 months with about 10-15 hours of use a week, just started my second full tank so we'll see how this one goes
I actually kept a log of my second tank of bulk propane so I could see how many hours I got out of it on a bulk hothead set up. I know I really should get out more - but I got 55-60 hours out of a 6kg propane, that cost about ?13 to refill. Not bad, and made me realise I'd pretty much saved myself in what that torch time would have cost in MAPP gas, the cost of the bulk set up on the first tank. ;D
HP x
Physically the difference is this:
Not Bulk
You are using small canisters which screw directly onto the hothead. These canisters are usually in the form of Mapp gas which is essentially propane with added propadiane (might have spelt that wrong). This means that the gas burns slightly hotter than standard propane. This works well with a hothead as you have very little control over the amount of oxygen in the gas mix. Usually, you have too little oxygen but the Mapp seems to make the best use of the oxygen that is availble.
You can also use the small cylinders of just propane on a hothead. It will work in terms of making the beads but it is very hard to keep your wonderful bright glass colours true. For example your greens may go brown, your yellows may go grey. This is because with your oxygen starved flame you are pulling the oxide out of the glass rod and reverting it to its more metallic state. If you add oxygen this doesn't happen.
You can't really use butane. It's not hot enough and burns too dirty.
Bulk
We can't get large cylinders of Mapp gas in this country so your next best bet is to attach your hothead to a large cylinder of propane. The sort you see hanging around caravans, barbecues and patio heaters. It comes in a red/orange cylinder. The smallest is 3.9kg, 6kg and I believe you can get around 20 kg cylinders. They come from tool hire places, caravan shops and garages, for example.
You attach the hothead via a convertor to a standard propane hose which fits onto your bulk cylinder. You need to have a small brass convertor which takes the hotheads inch fitting down to whatever standard propane is (can't remember offhand but it's something like 1/4 inch.) You then get a crimp fitted hose on the end of this. This has to be standard pressurised gas hose (it's orange) you can't use hosepipe or any other nonsense. This then goes to a flashback arrestor and a propane regulator and then into a standard propane connector whic is brass, is quite large and has a domed end which screws into the bulk cylinder. (only lampworkers call it "bulk" - if you ask in the tool hire place they'll just look at you strangely).
Flashback arrestor - a type of valve which stops burining gas travelling back up the hose into the cylinder
Regulator - Controls the pressure and flow of the propane which is delivered to your torch. There are many different regulators around. Go for a single stage (has one dial) type.
Martin Tuffnell supplies the full bulk kit or you can make your own up if you are competent. Welding supply shops are usually more understanding of this type of thing rather than your average caravan shop. Be prepared for hours of eye rolling action from well meaning but rather chauvanistic shop keepers at this point. Or just phone up Martin who will give you exactly what you need.
You can use bulk propane rather more easily than a small propane cylinder attached to your hothead. I don't know quite why this is - I suspect the much greater pressure helps. ?Many people think that the bulk propane won't be as good as a small cylinder of Mapp, and you may find that you need to go a little slower to compensate for the slightly lower torch temperature but most people get used to it pretty quickly.
The advantage of bulk over Mapp cylinder? Easy. Cost and convenience.
A Mapp cylinder is currently around ?5 - ?8 a cylinder. This will last you for around four hours burning. A bulk cylinder will last you weeks at least, possibly months. A bulk cylinder refill will be around ?10 - you can't refill the mapp cylinders which will litter your work area and make it look like Union Carbide after a month. You can set yourself up with a bulk system for around ?80 (not sure what Tuff charges but it'll be around that).
Also as the small mapp cylinders are so dinky they'll lose pressure very quickly - you'll think you're running out of gas. As gas loses pressure it cools down. Feel the cylinder - it will be very cold. You'll need to place the cylinder in a pot of warm water to increase the pressure again. Very fiddly and inconvenient. You don't get this problem with bulk cylinders are they don't lose pressure so much.
Although the bulk cylinder is another expense which will have your partner nagging you it really pays for itself very quickly indeed. After around 10 mapp cylinders in fact. Hope this is helpful.
Quote from: Helen P on January 08, 2007, 09:48:06 AM
I actually kept a log of my second tank of bulk propane so I could see how many hours I got out of it on a bulk hothead set up.? I know I really should get out more - but I got 55-60 hours out of a 6kg propane, that cost about ?13 to refill.? Not bad, and made me realise I'd pretty much saved myself in what that torch time would have cost in MAPP gas, the cost of the bulk set up on the first tank. ;D
HP x
wow ?13, mines about ?20, you lucky thing
I got 14kg for ?13 :-) Les put me onto a well cheap place! no rental charge either! :D
I had to pay a returnable deposit for my tank of ?13 and my tank is now ?16.12, the price has gone up nearly ?3 since i went to bulk fuel.
We only have one place we can get it from as far as I know here, so seems they have the monopoly.
Thats good price your paying RB :)
Jenx
thanks everyone for the info.
I have bulk propane (from Martin) & a 17.5kg bottle. The size of the bottle ended up due to the seemingly total incompetence of gas suppliers round here, When it is empty I shall try & get a smaller one!
I still have a lot to learn & everyone here is incredibly helpful
Colette x
This is a brilliant thread. Just answered a whole pile of questions I wanted to ask.
Cool Shirley ... that's what this place is here for .... glad it has helped you out some :)
Les xx
Sal, thank you SO much for putting all that info together. It is very very helpful. Fantastic - thank you ;D
no problem,
we've all been there, although it is a lot easier to get hold of the stuff than when I started! :)
Hello! Finding this thread very useful. ;D How much should I expect to pay for the initial outlay of buying a bulk propane canister? Can someone tell me please?
Iv'e just ordered the bulk adaptor kit from Martin it cost just over ?100,now I need to suss out where to buy the propane.Nearly there -I'm really excited!
Carol :)
Jo, I didn't buy the tank, I paid a ?19 deposit and just swap it for a full one each time. It costs me ?18 for the 13kg refill. The place I get it (a caravan place) told me to try and get hold of any size tank, butane or propane, and I wouldn't have needed to pay any deposit to swap it for the size and type I needed. Maybe ask at the dump?
Local tip/recycling certre is a good place, as long as they have the type & size you need.
To find your local Propane Suppliers Go Here (http://www.multimap.com/clients/places.cgi?client=calor5)
Just enter your Postcode.
Wow, that's a great tool. Thanks! ;D
I got mine from the local garage, it was £16 for a 11kg cannister (& they forgot to charge me the £10 deposit too ;D)
Quote from: Redhotsal on January 06, 2007, 08:32:44 PM
Yep - Halfords do it and if you can't find it in B+Q you may have to go to B+Q Depot. The top of the bottle is a 1 inch thread and the bottle is about 12inch long and is almost always yellow though I have seen black ones. If you see blue cans they're propane.
You'll rip through a Mapp cylinder in a couple of sessions so it's a pricely option. They also lose pressure easily so you may need to stand the base of the can in warm water to regain the pressure.
Go for bulk as soon as you can - it's a gazillion times cheaper and much easier to use - Martin has everything you'll need. I never really noticed much difference between Mapp in cylinder and propane in bulk. Don't go for propane in small size though as you'll have a lot of trouble keeping your colours true (not enough oxygen in the mix). Go for a hothead - they're great little torches and you'll always have a back up if you progress onto the bigger torches.
The only drawback is the damn noise they make!
Does anyone know where I can get Mapp Gas in Edinburgh? Do B & Q sell them and if so whereabouts in the store, or are they in storage somewhere? :)
Or is there anywhere else that sells them?
I bought Mapp from B&Q. It was about £10 a can. Seem to remember it was near the powertools in my local branch, along with blow torches and the like. Best to ask someone who works there.
http://www.tradecounterdirect.com/productinfo.php?pid=200&cid=117&cat=SOLDERING:%20Gas%20Cylinders&pg=1
http://www.tool-up.co.uk/shop/diy/TODMAPP.html
Plumb Centre also sell MAPP gas.
Plumbcenter are usually about £3 dearer too! :o