Hi,
I was on LE and noted there's a whole list of diff annealing temperatures for CIM - has anyone any experience to share here, ie to say do you follow the recocmmended temperatures for the different rods mentioned by CIM?
I have the following copied from LE which Kathy of CIM recommended (temp in F)
Gelly's Sty 950
Ginger 1010
Celadon 1030
Butter Pecan 1050
Bordello 940
Leaky Pen 980
Boy, gets to be a pain to have different annealing temp especially if I work a whole day using different glass types. I can't see myself following a strict regime of just using one type of glass. I like to mix and match. Quinton, what's your take/suggestion on this?
Anyone had their CIM beads crack because they didn't follow the am temp? Also, what would be the ramping down like? Anyone with experience, please share. Thanks!
i will email kathy directly and get her advice..
8)
what a pain
and how are you suppost to anneal them if you mix the colours or mix with other glass ???
Isn't there a thread somewhere with a load of info about this? I'll have a look
Here it is - http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2031.0
Yep, I remember reading that Shirley. I thought we could use the same 520C as we do for effetre... Haven't tried my batch yet though :)
I just ran a test on the annealing temp with the CIM colors I bought from Quinton. I have a much higher annealing temp reading than the original I posted. I use the stringer test (1mm stringer) and tested in my FuseBox II kiln (digitally controlled) and here are the results:
Temp in Fahrenheit (to get Celsius, take the temp minus 32, then mulitply by 0.555, result is Celsius reading)
Celadon 1020
Simply Berry 1070
Halong 1099
Leaky Pen 1015
Ginger 1110
Gelly 1078
Butter Pecan 990
Khaki 1078
Bordello 995
French Blue 1070
Cirrus 1078
My kiln is programmed to anneal at 950°F which is about 510°C and I use this for Moretti, Lauscha, Vetrofond and all beads come out ok. Thing is, I am worried as I am selling at events where I can't afford to have a whole lot of people complaining that the beads cracked when they got home. So I am very careful here. I also know that you could use glass with a max difference of 4 COE units and the beads should hold. But this is not for every case.
In this case it would be alright to use the harder glass as the base bead and the stringer work with the softer glass on top (ie CIM as base bead and Moretti as application). I'm sorry if I am scaring all of you and perhaps making a mountain out of a molehill. I've had experiences before where I spent an entire week making a series of glass beads and they starting cracking up one by one after one week and they were meant for a show! Anyway, I would try out the glass and see what happens. In the meantime, perhaps we can get some feedback from the supplier?
Soooooooo, in reality the annealing temp is different to what the manufacturer recommends anyway? Batch annealing the different glass types together is a no then :-\
Mixing glass types isn't always a no-no Billie. I've heard that a longer soak, and maybe the higher end of the annealing range, can help.
I made a goddess purely out of CIM Cirrus, soaked her for a long while at 520c (like over 2 hours!) and she still cracked :-( The Lentils I made were okay though, and I encased cirrus over ink blue and they came out okay - all at 520c. Just seems that it didnt like something bigger and sculptural.
Quote from: Mary on May 10, 2007, 01:15:37 PM
Mixing glass types isn't always a no-no Billie. I've heard that a longer soak, and maybe the higher end of the annealing range, can help.
I guess new glass = experimenting ;D ;D
kathy has made herself availble for all technical help required - and i have hooked her up with dora to sort us out some info on this issue..
i know martin will also be closely involved in future so i will see if i can tag him in too.. kathy had mentioned that she prefers not to get directly involved on the fori (plural of forums!) as it just takes so much of her time.. but she WANTS to dive in to solve technical problems as soon as people raise them.. so i will fire this over to her for comment!!
;D ;D
fori?????? fora, methinks :)
ahhhh its all coming back to me now... i was forced through latin at high school - you'd have thought some of it would stick..
anyway, Kathy is away with Dora's work - and will get back to us soon!!
thanks again Dora, it is very useful to us all that you have put so much time into getting facts for us!!
;D ;D
just had a reply from kathy....
Thank you, this is exactly the kind of thing I need a heads up about. I'm on it.
;)
Hope I am not repeating too much here . . . we have 25 Messy testers, none of whom reported cracking or breakage problems due to annealing temperatures EXCEPT with Cirrus, Halong Bay, and Peacock Green. Most of the testers did not change their annealing cycles from their regular Moretti schedule.
We did have testers report, however, that batch annealing was not effective.
We test every pot of Messy Color that we melt against Effetre regular clear, Effetre super clear, Vetrofond crystal clear, Lauscha, Precision's Diamond Clear, and Kugler clear. We are formulated to be closest to Effetre and Vetrofond, so we recommend using those.
Our testers who traditionally use Lauscha with Effetre and Vetrofond have also reported no problems using Lauscha with Messy.
It is part of my mission to provide comprehensive and accurate information about each and every Messy Color individually in order to optimize your working environment.
If anyone is interested in delving into this topic more in depth, I have a lengthy bibliography from Corning Library that I would be happy to forward.
Kathy
Hi
I've been reading this and the other post http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2031.30
about CIM.
I've got the Cirrus (and 2 others). I haven't used it very much, but I have made some small beads with cirrsus and cooled in blanket and batch annealed as normal
PRO1
Ramp1 149C
Temp1 520C
Hold1 60mins
Ramp2 78C
Temp2 371C
Hold2 0000mins
Ramp3 0000
and that was about 2 weeks ago and they seem fine:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/shine-on2/Beads/beads2004.jpg)
Perhaps I've been lucky - or it could be that they are smaller pieces???
Any thoughts??
Trudi
Pretty :)
Haven't tried mine yet as I batch anneal and haven't got a big enough stash yet :-\
thanks trudi, i know kathy is keeping an eye on this thread for us...
cheers
Q
It would be interesting to see comments from others on this after they've had a play.
I honestly didn't think about it when I bought the glass - or when I used it before I read the posts. And I did have a bit of a panic about it, and as I'm new to lampworking I'm on a constant learning curve - and try and learn from others on here as well as my own experiences!
I do tend to batch anneal, and while I might mix the 104 glasses, I do try not to mix them too much - more surface decorations etc.
I'll probably be a bit more wary for a while using this one - but I'll keep giving it a go and see what happens.
I also have the Gelly Sty & Celadon (the finish on the rod is just amazing - it has a superbsheen to it - haven't really had the chance to have a proper play with it yet - need some inspiration first!)
Trudi
The funny thing with the beads I made above - I had also made some similar but with clear effetre - but the cirrus CIM gave a much better finish with the frit!
Recently one of our testers, Lorraine Chandler, batch annealed Messy Color. Lorraine divided the glass into 2 annealing groups and experienced no breakage with either. (Thanks, Lorraine, for a great job testing and record keeping!)
525 (Celsius) annealing schedule for batch annealing
Ramp up 0-150 degrees 1 hour
150-315 degrees 1 hour
315-425 degrees 1 hour
425-525 degrees 1 hour
Held at 525 for 30 minutes
Ramp down 525-425 degrees 2 hours
425-370 degrees 1 hour
370-315 degrees 1 hour
315-205 degrees 1 hour
Turn off kiln and remove beads the next morning.
555 annealing schedule for batch annealing
Ramp up 0-150 degrees 1 hour
150-315 degrees 1 hour
315-425 degrees 45 minutes
425-510 degrees 45 minutes
510-555 degrees 45 minutes
Held at 555 for 30 minutes
Ramp down 555-510 degrees 1 hour
510-455 degrees 1 hour
455-400 degrees 1 hour
400-290 degrees 1 hour
290-230 degrees 1 hour
Turn off kiln and remove beads in the morning.
We don't like to recommend batch annealing because it is always safer to anneal immediately while the bead is still hot. However, Trudi, I thought you would want to know that some of our testers are having success as well.
And by the way, you also discovered one of the special working properties of Cirrus. If you use transparent colors on top of Cirrus, it will appear less "washed out" than if on regular clear.
Hope that gives you some confidence, Trudi. And hope you will share your beads and any other discoveries you make about Messy Color. Feel free to contact me here or directly at kathy@creationismessy.com if there are any questions.
thanks kathy, feedback based on actual testing is totally invaluable!!!
;D