Hi,
I've been thinking about buying some of this glass to play with but I found a couple of threads about the annealing schedules and I'm a bit confused. Does each colour have a different annealing schedule? SOunds complicated, what does everybody else do when using this stuff? The colours look so nice but I'm a bit scared of not annealing it properly, when I've got my kiln on I tend to work for a while so I would find it quite restricting to only be able to use certain colours at one time. I have one program set that works for moretti and lauscha and that's what I tend to use most often, anyone else's experience would be really helpful before I take the plubnge to try some out..
CIM has a coe of 104, just the same as Moretti, so it should just anneal like Moretti ...
I am not the expert though ...
Les xx
HI Les,
That's what I was hoping for, I just went looking through the forums for any info before buying and I found a thread on one that listed different annealing temps for each colour, it's sounds so complicated it put me off, have you ever had any problems with it?
Ive not had any problems, I use the same annealing schedule for all of it ;D
Is that just the same schedule as for the moretti? I have one programme set that does my moretti and Lauscha as it ramps down slower, do you think that program would do ?
I just turn the kiln off when I have finished working and let it cool naturally, I have never had a bead break yet!!
Is yours a fire brick kiln? Mines is an sc2, am I being needlessly anxious again? :-\
can't comment on the SC2 Mindy.. but I have a brick lined kiln and just turn it off... i have no idea how these proper bead kilns work..
Les xx
another quick question, what is this glass like to work with? Do you all like it?
a response on annealing from us, we just click our kiln off too - never had a crack..
;) ;D
must get a posh kiln sometime, or learn to programme ours!!!! :D :D :D
sounds like a fire brick kiln is much less complicated, I'd stick with that if I could! Didn't realise these ones got so complicated!
Hi
I had a sample pack of these a while ago from Les and love them. I'm trying not to buy any more glass at the moment (you can only just get into our dining room as it is) but will crack soon..... ;)
I have an SC2 and use exactly the same schedule as for Moretti. I had a lot of trouble with CIM cracking when I cooled in vermiculite then batch annealed - but I got the sample at the same time as my lentil bead presses so I don't know which is to blame (it would have been far more sensible to have tried a known quantity first in the presses but I'm not that patient).
I've had no problem with them when I put them straight into the kiln using the usual schedule.
HTH
Sarah
Quote from: mindy23 on April 23, 2007, 12:33:00 PM
another quick question, what is this glass like to work with? Do you all like it?
It's lovely. I think it's very similar to Moretti for characteristics - similar melting, it just has a lovely range of colours. I also use exactly the same annealing schedule as my Moretti.
Thanks for that, I can go and get my order together now, I love the colours, they look so subtle. Once again my panic is subdued! Quentin here I come!
Hey, steady on with that credit card!!! ... or you'll be seeing the same glass addiction specialist I need to see.... :o :D
Bev
:)
There's a specialist.......don't tell my hubster, he'll have me there like a shot ;D ;D
Dear Taramag:
I'm sorry to hear you've had trouble working with our new colors! I would recommend turning up the heat. Most of our colors work better when worked hotter than you may be accustomed to.
Also, turn up your annealer. We've tested Cirrus and the annealing range is 970-1040 degrees. Our tests also show that Halong Bay anneals best at 1070 and Peacock Green at 1050. I would recommend setting your annealer somewhere around 1050.
Not sure if you figured most of this out already, so forgive me if I repeat what you already know. The trick to getting Cirrus to go milky is to strike it. The misty white opacifiers will appear as you cool and re heat the glass.
Since we know many people will work their beads in the flame for half an hour or more, we engineered Cirrus to remain transparent despite long torch times. You can control the color by how many times you cool and re heat the bead. I timed it today - if you strike in and out of the flame for alternating 8-10 second periods over the space of 3 minutes, you can get a round bead to go milky. Takes a bit longer if you are working on something flat like a paddle.
I've also heard that it is very difficult to get anything under a 12-15 mm size to strike at all. So small sized beads stay completely transparent.
Halong Bay and Peacock Green work essentially the same as Cirrus.
It sounds like you were only using Cirrus, Halong Bay, and Peacock Green. I wanted to note, for your reference, that Messy Color is formulated to be closest to Effetre and Vetrofond. It is a little bit farther from Lauscha (which is a higher c.o.e.).
I hope that helps. Taramag, let us know if turning up the heat and your annealer helped!
I'm working on compiling this kind of working info to post on our site. If anyone else has input about how these colors work, or any other Messy Colors for that matter, I'd appreciate the feedback!
Sorry for the delay in response. I'm in China working on new colors so in a different time zone.
just found this from the makers of CiM on LE... thought it was worth posting here?..
Thats interesting Q, wonder why under 12-15 wont strike?
Ah Beverly, it's too late for sense, I'm already lost to glass but thank you for trying, do we have a support group?
;D ;D ;D I know the feeling (and two more parcels expected shortly)!
No support group.... yet.... but you never know, might be useful....... :)
Thanks for the extra info Q, it all makes a bit more sense now. I have just about decided on what I'm going to get, if this is an addiction then I have fallen off the wagon and am in a ditch at the roadside right now but I'm happy so I dont care for now, until the credit card statement comes in that is! ;D
do what i do......email Q......with your obscenely large order.....close your eyes when you hit the pay button.....
Its great!!
So, is anyone actually cooling this stuff in vermiculite and then batch annealing? There was a suggestion earlier that suggested it wasn't any good for CIM glass.
Just read this on LE, just thought it might help!
<<One of Craftweb's member, David Williams, made an entry that quotes and should be properly credited to Lani McGregor of Bullseye as follows:
"If you are annealing glasses with varying annealing points (as compatible opals and transparents will have), then select the glass with the higher annealing range and soak at the appropriate temperature for it. As long as you go slowly enough down through the strain point of any glass with a lower range, you will have taken all the glasses through the annealing process. "
Please see the attached chart for the annealing temperatures for all 11 Messy Colors.
Hope that helps. Feel free to let me know if there are any other questions.
Kathy
Attached Files
File Type: doc MessyColorAnnealingTemperatures.doc (34.5 KB, 42 views)>>
__________________
Hi
On a different post I was asking for information about understanding the firing schedule - I was given a programme (thanks Mary) for Effetre and lookng at different posts saw that there were different times etc - obvious with different size beads - but also soaking times - and I really wanted to find out more and understand the programming schedule. Now that I've used my kiln a few times this is a lot less scary!! And I'll go back again and re-read the manual - and hope it makes sense.
I looked on the effetre site but it was all in italian and I couldn't find what I was looking for. Then again in another post it said to be wary of mixing up different brands - even if they had the same coe - like ASK / CIM/ etc etc.
Then looking at Q's post and advising temps ranging from 970 - 1070 I'm really confused - as the schedule I'm working with from Mary for Effetre is 520°C. Q are the temps you've advised in °F?? I wouldn't have thought it woud be so far different?
Also, turn up your annealer. We've tested Cirrus and the annealing range is 970-1040 degrees. Our tests also show that Halong Bay anneals best at 1070 and Peacock Green at 1050. I would recommend setting your annealer somewhere around 1050.
If you have beads that are made say from Effetre & Lauscha - would you go for the higher of the temps and soak for longer?
Thanks
T
Me again
More of a question for Q
Since we know many people will work their beads in the flame for half an hour or more, we engineered Cirrus to remain transparent despite long torch times. You can control the color by how many times you cool and re heat the bead. I timed it today - if you strike in and out of the flame for alternating 8-10 second periods over the space of 3 minutes, you can get a round bead to go milky. Takes a bit longer if you are working on something flat like a paddle.
I hadn't realised that this colour needed to be striked to go milky - from the picture in your listing it looks milky already ........ I have some on order but it hasn't arrived yet so I haven't had a chance to expreiment - I was just curious after seeing this post.
I also didn't realise that it was harder to strike smaller beads - it's an interesting point, and makes me want to go back and experiment!!
all my temps are in Fahrenheit.. but we really haven't played much with kiln temps to change colours... we just make what we want and bomb them in the kiln until bedtime, and turn it off...
i guess the very best thing is experimentation... i know its easy to say when we have all the glass we need - but it is fun, and part of the whole flame working adventure!!!
I think we all learnt our own techniques by experimenting, thats why there is so much varying info out there!!
I agree - some of my nicer beads have been by experimenting. The trouble is I get so excited and want to do it all yesterday - LOL.
I have so many ideas buzzing around - then when I get to the torch I have to stop & think about what I want to do first. Sometimes I 'll see a bead that inspires me - sometimes a picture and sometimes I'll want to make beads that match with gemstones!
I had also book looking up temp for Lauscha - I emailed them and got an email right back from Marcie Davis:
Hi Trudi,
Congratulations on making your own beads! Fun, isn't it?
The annealing temperature for Lauscha Glass is
968F
It softens at 986F, so don't go that high!!!
Enjoy your adventure. The larger the beads, the longer you should hold it at the annealing temperature.
:)
Marcie
968°F - translates to 520°C = Same as effetre which is also at the lower end of the range Q talked about for CIM!
thanks trudi - what i love about the glass business is how keen everyone is to "show and tell" or even "do and tell"... what a pleasure dealing with folks like you!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;)
This is my first post on Frit Happens: hello everyone! My e-mail is Kathy@creationismessy.com so I hope all of you will feel free to contact me directly with any questions about Messy Color. Also, if you happen to see a thread (like this one) that needs a response, please shoot me a quick email to let me know. (In this case, thanks for the heads up, Q!)
Sounds like you have already seen the annealing ranges for Messy Colors that we have tested to date. Creation is Messy scientifically tests annealing temperature ranges for each color separately to provide accurate and complete information to our customers. We hope that the annealing chart will optimize your working environment.
Sarah is correct – most people have reported to us that Messy needs to be worked hot and put into the annealer quickly. Batch annealing is not advised.
We recommend your target annealing temperature should match the color with the highest temperature as shown in the chart, or the other manufacturer's highest temperature, whichever is highest.
Our testers all successfully annealed their test beads at the standard, advertised range for other 104 glasses with the exception of Cirrus, Halong Bay and Peacock Green. Artwork incorporating any of these three colors needs to be annealed at the higher temperature range of 970 to 1090° F. We are working with our chemists to find out whether there is a way that we can lower the annealing temperature without sacrificing the requested working properties of these three colors. (They were engineered to respond to customer requests for opals that would stay translucent despite long torching times and annealing.)
I hope that answers your questions. If not, ask away! Also please keep me informed about your experiences working with Messy Color. I love to hear what everyone is doing.
Best regards,
Kathy
Kathy Seamands
Creation is Messy
Messy Color™
[tel] 206-817-8658
[web] CreationIsMessy.com
[mail] Kathy@CreationIsMessy.com
thanks kathy for the prompt reply - i'll make sure all the people who bought CiM from me in europe also get this... ;)
Does anyone know what temp effetre starts to soften? Because I work in 6-8hr shifts and make all different sets in one shift, and would use say CIM for a set at one point, then effetre later for another....
I anneal as I go, so if I used the higher temp thats needed for Cirrus for the effetre, would it effect the effetre (try saying that after a few drinks!)
Sorry if this is a thick question - any talk of annealling at other than 520c and my brain starts to go to mush....
You could garage at your usual temp, then raise it for a soak before ramping down?
How about making your CIM beads first, raising them to their annealing temperature for an hour, during which time you pull stringers, vacuum, have a cuppa etc, then set your kiln so that it ramps down to your garaging temp for other glass, make your other beads, back up to their temp to anneal, and then complete your normal cycle? I don't really know anything, by the way :D