Hi everyone,
I've been looking into buying a kiln that I can use for several things (glass, ceramics PMC etc). I'd whittled it down to the Paragon Caldera, with the option of buying a bead collar to go onto it. This would mean that I would be able to work without the collar and fire up to the ceramic temps I need, and with the collar when I'm doing beads.
Now I've been told that this isn't possible as you could detach it whilst the kiln's on and this would be dangerous. So this now means I would need to get it (a) without the bead collar (no bead door, but hot enough for ceramics), (b) with the bead collar permanently attached (not really hot enough for ceramics, but quite big) or (c) get something else - the Paragon SC2 was suggested, looks good and has good reviews (again not really hot enough for ceramics, but with a bead door. It's much smaller than the Caldera + bead collar, but less expensive too).
Does anyone have any experience of the kilns above or advice? I was thinking that I would just go with the basic Caldera, but worried that I might get frustrated about not having the door?
Sorry for the waffle and thanks for the advice in advance!
Julia
With a bead door you're only opening a small door at the front to put the beads in, so there's presumably less hot air leakage and the temperature remains stable so presumably you're less likely to get cracked beads. Though I'm not an expert and I don't know how much the temperature fluctuates when the door is opened. Also if it's a lift up lid type of door once again you're going to get more hot air escaping when you open it.
But it all depends on what you are going to primarily use it for. If you definately need to do ceramic stuff and cannot do that with a bead door and that's the kiln's primary purpose then you can't have one. But if beads are the prime purpose then it's awfully handy. Course you could make do without and batch anneal.
HTH
Helen
Julia, I thought it was a case of simply unclipping the bead collar when you didn't need it - when the kiln is switch off of course.
You can buy the bead collar separately, so it must work in this way? Otherwise, what would be the point of the collar on its own?
When I had mine delivered, the base wasn't even permanently clipped to the body, it came out the box not attached anyway....
Yes, thinking about it, you could take it apart whilst its switched on, so the relay in the lid that isolates the electricity when that opens (Lee, Kilncare's bone of contention!) is pretty defunct!
Ask Shelley (Good Monkey) - I know she has a Caldera, and as she bought it for annealing, I assume she had a bead collar version.
Incidentally, I believe the reason that the bead collar affects the temperature is not because of the door opening, I think its because the extra height prevents the kiln from going up so high, but I could be wrong there.
I used a bead collar on a Caldera for ages - it was really good. I don't know how I could have annealled beads as I went along without one ;D
My advice would be that if you have made up your mind to get a Caldera and you want to anneal as you go - get a bead collar.
Hazel xx
Thanks Helen, Dawn and Hazel,
I do really want to be able to do ceramics in the kiln - it's my first love and what I have been making my jewellery using for years. Beading is new to me and I can't really gage yet if it is going to be a long term thing (though certainly looking promising!) so ceramics really needs to be a consideration. I haven't found cooling the beads in my fibre blanket difficult so I think I'd be fine with batch annealing if it means I can do ceramics too. It is a shame though, the bead door would have been useful!
I've found a site that supply the basic Caldera sealed together and they refuse to sell the bead collar with it unless it is also secured on. So if you look inside it at all (I suppose by lifting the lid) it will switch off. I can understand where they're coming from. I've looked elsewhere, but they are much more expensive.
I guess I'm leaning towards the basic Caldera!? Grrrr...there's always something else to think about whenever I've just made up my mind!
Julia x
:) Good luck!
Why not get the Caldera you want, which you can batch anneal in quite happily. If you want to start garaging later on, you can just get a little beadcube for that. It's small and neat enough not to feel like you're losing too much space.
Quote from: Hules on October 07, 2009, 04:47:10 PM
Thanks Helen, Dawn and Hazel,
I've found a site that supply the basic Caldera sealed together and they refuse to sell the bead collar with it unless it is also secured on. So if you look inside it at all (I suppose by lifting the lid) it will switch off. I can understand where they're coming from. I've looked elsewhere, but they are much more expensive.
Julia x
Where have you found it like that, Julia, and at what price?
What's "interesting" about this idea, and this discussion has been had before.... so, they sell it, with bead collar sealed on. Fair enough, sensible. Switches off when opening lid, sensible.
So, clearly they're thinking that the average consumer is utterly dim enough to try and separate that kiln body from its bead collar, whilst it is still switched on..... (no, I know, that's not what MOST people are likely to do) - same dim-wit though, might decide to poke a mandrel up at and angle and into the exposed elements which remain on when you open the bead door..... hmm, wonder if they've thought of that?
Edited to add:
Sorry, I know that sounds a bit erm, I dunno, harsh, against the seller who is trying to cover all safety aspects.
An Julia, sorry, I know you probably don't want to say who the seller is on here, cos that would be being negative about them, and that's not good form. Did they also say they would supply with the base permanently fixed on, too? As far as I can tell, this means them actually modifying the kiln somehow, like welding it together?
Caw :o Didn't know I was taking my life in my hands everytime I use my caldera with the bead collar ??? Must remember not to try to lift the top off while I'm doing it ::), I think I might notice though as it would be a bit warm ::)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D @ Diane
;D I did wonder if I was being rather overly cautious??
The man never did say that I would separate it while it was actually on, just that he wasn't happy to sell one that you could do that with (fair enough I think). He also did say he could get one made up with the bead collar on already if I wanted it, but permantly fixed. I don't think he ever said how the basic one was joined - if it came like that? I did feel that I was being a little annoying, making him clarify everything, but he answered all my questions - plus at the end of the day he doesn't have to sell anything he isn't comfortable with.
I can always go somewhere else for a basic one (though I've only found one other place so far? Where did those of you who have caldera kilns get yours?). And then try it for a bit and get a bead collar at a later date if it annoys me.
Thanks for your thoughts Julia x
Paragon Kilns (http://www.paragonkilns.co.uk/cald.htm)
Hobbyceramicraft (http://www.hobbyceramicraft.co.uk/kiln_full_detail/13/Paragon_Caldera_Kiln.htm)
Could also try Creative Glass Guild
Tempsford STained Glass
Tuffnells?
Kansa
And there was an ebay shop, but can't remember name.
I am sure there's others too
I'll go check them out! Ta
The problem with relying on batch annealing is that if you get into making slightly larger beads, they don't survive the Vermiculite, fibre blanket phase.
I have a caldera with bead collar. The kiln "stacks" together, and has clips. When you want to fuse, you remove the collar. I don't know what your contact is talking about when he says permanently fixed... ???
I got mine from in the US wired for the UK and with the cut off safety switch to meet UK regulations :) But Robin at Paragon Kilns has always been helpful.
Quote from: Zeldazog on October 07, 2009, 03:53:11 PM
Incidentally, I believe the reason that the bead collar affects the temperature is not because of the door opening, I think its because the extra height prevents the kiln from going up so high, but I could be wrong there.
That's right ;D
Quote from: Billie on October 10, 2009, 12:59:24 PM
I have a caldera with bead collar. The kiln "stacks" together, and has clips. When you want to fuse, you remove the collar. I don't know what your contact is talking about when he says permanently fixed... ???
That's what I thought it would be, seeing as the base just clipped on (isn't that how it is used as vitrigraph kiln, base off, kiln on supports??
Quote from: Billie on October 10, 2009, 12:59:24 PM
I have a caldera with bead collar. The kiln "stacks" together, and has clips. When you want to fuse, you remove the collar. I don't know what your contact is talking about when he says permanently fixed... ???
This is what I'd hoped it would do - I wanted to remove the collar when I wanted to fuse or fire my ceramic pendants. To be honest all the thinking about it has rather taken the shine off buying a kiln :( I wouldn't want to buy a kiln that was deemed unsafe and the others don't quite do everything I need. I think I
will be going for the Caldera with the collar though. I've no plans to remove the collar when it's switched on or stick any mandrels in the elements either. And I've heard that it
is a good kiln.
Julia
Quote from: Hules on October 10, 2009, 02:29:40 PM
Quote from: Billie on October 10, 2009, 12:59:24 PM
I have a caldera with bead collar. The kiln "stacks" together, and has clips. When you want to fuse, you remove the collar. I don't know what your contact is talking about when he says permanently fixed... ???
This is what I'd hoped it would do - I wanted to remove the collar when I wanted to fuse or fire my ceramic pendants. To be honest all the thinking about it has rather taken the shine off buying a kiln :( I wouldn't want to buy a kiln that was deemed unsafe and the others don't quite do everything I need. I think I will be going for the Caldera with the collar though. I've no plans to remove the collar when it's switched on or stick any mandrels in the elements either. And I've heard that it is a good kiln.
Julia
Don't be put off. It's a great multi-purpose kiln. Great for fusing small pieces, working with PMC, and annealing beads. And there's no way you can remove the collar when it's switched on and up to temperature, unless you have asbestos hands ;D
Quote from: Zeldazog on October 10, 2009, 01:06:37 PM
Quote from: Billie on October 10, 2009, 12:59:24 PM
I have a caldera with bead collar. The kiln "stacks" together, and has clips. When you want to fuse, you remove the collar. I don't know what your contact is talking about when he says permanently fixed... ???
That's what I thought it would be, seeing as the base just clipped on (isn't that how it is used as vitrigraph kiln, base off, kiln on supports??
Yep, it stands on 4 little "feet"
And to optimise space, I use some stainless steel mesh I bent into an "L" shape as well so that I can get 2 to 3 rows of mandrels in when annealing as I go. I just put the beads from the flame at the end closest to me, then shove them along to the other side of the bead door when they're no longer tacky. You can get quite a lot of beads/mandrels in.
Hi Julia
I know exactly what you mean about the "taking the shine off", I felt like that when I was looking. It is so difficult to find the right one if you know you're going to use it for more than one thing.
As much as I love my Hot Start, it will only be good of batch annealing if/when I/my son starts beading, no good for enamelling, and can just about reach a very low biscuit firing, so not perfect.
I thought the Caldera was fab, I really did, and sometimes I wish I had kept the one I ordered, especially with what eventually followed...
I needed to be able to move the kiln, put it away, and when I got the Caldera, I found that the positioning of the handles made it awkward for me - because I was going to have to put it in a cupboard, etc.
But whatever you do, DON'T let this put you off, because that was my particular set of circumstances, in my home.
I ended up buying the Hot Start, which at the time of my indecision, was put on offer, and I paid a wee bit less for it than I would have the Caldera.
Daft thing is though, the Hot Start was the same - needed to be able to be put away, and it was a lot bigger and heavier, and therefore I couldn't pick it up. So one of my clever brothers made a trolley for it, so it can be wheeled away in the understairs cupboard. And I have found, if its out, chuck a table cloth on it, and it makes a half decent addition to the dining table! We put extra food dishes on it last Xmas.
The daft bit being, if I had thought about the trolley idea for the Caldera, it would have remained the absolutely, ideal kiln - specially as I now dabble in ceramics! And if I only have a small amount, then it can take ages to get them fired in the big kilns at Uni. So in a lot of ways, I STILL wish I had the Caldera, cos I could do ceramics, fusing (sometimes I don't want need to run the big kiln, good job its economical!)), enamelling using the bead collar that I would add later....
Thanks for that, decision made then! ;D You've both made me feel a lot better!!
Julia x
I love my Caldera and I fuse glass in it without removing the bead collar (too lazy) and it works very, very well.