I am looking for some kiln schedules for 104 glass - I have an SC2
I am looking for info on how to do a full fuse with 104 to create micro mosaic murrini and I am also wanting to do some slumping and tack fusing using 104 sheet combined with sections of rods.
Can anyone help?
Also, has anyone else done similar with 104? What are the drawbacks with slumping/fusing 104 compared with Bullseye or similar?
Thanks, Jo x
Sorry I can't help but I would like to know too! ;D
I would have thought the drawbacks really are the availability and colours of 104 sheet, the rods aren't a problem as we have them coming out out ears but I've not seen that much 104 sheet over here.
The other issues you might have is the softness of the glass, which will effect the kiln programme but also I've found when fusing the 104 that it sticks quite effectively to my battwash.
Temperature wise I've not gone above 750 with it as it seems to full fuse at that temp for small bits quite nicely.
If you give me an existing programme you have for a SC2 then I can rough out a few for you? I don't have one but should be able to estimate.
Hi Jolene
I am very interested in combining lampwork and kiln forming and have been testing 104 rods in the kiln over the past week or so and have had the same problems Rachel has had with the battwash sticking. I am concentrating on solving the battawsh problem before I look at refining the firing schedule. I have progressively stiffened the battwash and am now testing 65/35, kaolin/alumina hydrate mix which is in the kiln tonight.
I have been speaking to Martin Tuffnell about bringing in a wider range of 104 sheets, but would like to know if you know of any other suppliers of sheet 104.
I hope Rachel (the kiln whisperer) will come up with a more definitive 104 schedule.
Robert
@daftforcrafts
Sure, got some samples of sheet for me to test with? ;) Plus I have a Schott fetish at the moment...
Besides, It'll be in cone language if I use my little top loader!
This is a useful thread - thank you all!
I have just purchased some clear effetre sheet from Martin to play around with slumping...so thank you for the warning about the battwash Rachel. I'll be trying thinfire paper (as that works lovely with my Bullseye murrini)...or does that stick too?
If you are looking for 104 sheet glass these guys have a lot to offer:
http://www.hobbyland.it/eng/
I haven't tried the thinfire but I think it's just that the glass is so soft that it melts very easily and at a lower temp that other sheet glasses.
If I get some time, I'll have a play in little blue kiln!
Thanks Julie - I haven't come across that site before. They sell all sorts of stuff!
I know :D
MUSTN'T click link, have feeling it might result in credit card exposure......arghhhhhhh! Ooooooh glasssssssssss............ ;D
...too late! ;)
I did some fusing with 104 murrini, I will have a look back at my notes (I think I did actually write this lot down as it was for Uni!), but I think I did a full fuse at around 750, and think you could do lower.
Like Rachel, I got sticking, I agree that its because it's soft and melts early,
Annealing, well, you anneal your beads at 520 - 500 usually if I am correct - and a standard Bullseye fusing schedule will include an anneal cool from 517 to 371 at 83 DPH. So that should cover it, I would think!
So, personally, I would use a standard fusing schedule, but with the top process temperature vastly reduced - I'd probably try at 700 if I was looking for a tack fuse, or a bit higher if I was looking for a full fuse. I know that sounds low, but you can always refire a bit higher if it doesn't process enough - once it's blobbed, you can't go back!
Jolene, I don't know that there are any drawbacks to using - there's still a risk of devitrification, but I am not sure that it would be any different to Bullseye.
You have a wealth of colours in rod form, although I don't know what you'd get out of reactive and reducing glasses, as its the flame working that makes this happen a lot of the time I think?
The advantages I suppose, are that you already have lots and lots of lovely rod colours, and what a way to use up those shorts.....
It was the shorts I ws thinking of playing with, I've been looking at that website and calculating price for sheets in comparision to other glass and it seems very expensive so there's not enough of a draw for me to add yet another COE to my flat glass usage!
The clear came in at around £42 per/m2 excluding VAT and delivery from my calculations.
Quote from: Jolene on August 31, 2009, 10:04:24 AM
I am looking for some kiln schedules for 104 glass - I have an SC2
I am looking for info on how to do a full fuse with 104 to create micro mosaic murrini and I am also wanting to do some slumping and tack fusing using 104 sheet combined with sections of rods.
Can anyone help?
Also, has anyone else done similar with 104? What are the drawbacks with slumping/fusing 104 compared with Bullseye or similar?
Thanks, Jo x
It responds at about 50 - 75 deg F lower then Spectrum.
Slump at 1125 - 1150, Tack at 1275 - 1300, and Full Fuse at 1375 to 1400.
If you have any reliable success fusing 104 I suspect you'll be the first ever to do so. Fusing is CONSIDERABLY less forgiving of incompatibility then torching and all the Italian rod glass is infamous for the compatibility variances. Many artisans have even abandoned it for torching because of its unreliability. It's pretty much useless for fusing.
Here's a glass artist that fuses murrini.
http://www.winchestergalleriesltd.com/artists/munsen/1/index.php
He accepts the inevitability that about 50% or so of all firings go to the dumpster because of incompatibility. When Mel told me that, I didn't believe him. My old-fashioned Irish stubborn skepticism kicked in and I had to find out for myself Turns out he does way better then me. My failure rate was closer to 75%. Bloody expensive lesson before sense overrode stubborn and I abandoned the experiments.
If you want to fuse, stop using 104 and switch to either 90 or 96. You can then make torchworked elements (flowers, birds, etc.) and then tack fuse them (without distorting the elements) to flat glass. We do this routinely. Here's the firing schedule to do that with COE 96.
1. 400 dph to 1000F hold 20
2. 1200 dph to 1300F hold 5
3. FAP to 960F hold 60
4. 400 dph to 300 OFF
That's interesting Dennis - I have to say, I only used one colour murrini, or murrini from the same supplier, so obviously, incompatibility isn't an issue then. And I don't have any flat coe 104 to play with, so I haven't tried that.
Have to say that I came to the same conclusions as Dennis but without the experimenting! I use Spectrum a lot because they have nice dead flat opal glasses that I can print onto, but then I don't do much fused work, really only single sheet stuff.
Although I don't really want to fuel the corporate machine that is Bullseye and it's world domination, they do make it very very easy for artists at all levels to kiln-form! And why not, after all it is out individual creativity and ideas that should hold up a piece not technique as pure technique is easily copied.
Having said that, I do know that Jo and others probably have an innovative reason for wanting to conquor 104, so I would say go for it too and I also have a plan to try and use my filligree rods for some kiln-work...
Quote from: Zeldazog on October 17, 2009, 11:05:50 AM
That's interesting Dennis - I have to say, I only used one colour murrini, or murrini from the same supplier, so obviously, incompatibility isn't an issue then. And I don't have any flat coe 104 to play with, so I haven't tried that.
One of the greatest myths circulating with torchworkers is the claim that you can mix COE
"as long as it isn't too much". Claims as to how much "different" COE can be used range from 5 - 20%.
All myth. The "fact" is that even 1% incompatibility can destroy a project. Bullseye and Spectrum make glass to a carefully controlled standard,
and test the glass before labelling it as compatible. That is not so for any of the Italian glass. I have learned that it is NEVER reliable to fuse ANY 104 glass. I wouldn't even trust the identical colour from the identical manufacturer unless it came from the identical production batch. You can't trust fusing float glass unless it's to be fused to a piece from the same sheet. I believe the same applies to Italian glass rods. The COE and viscosity is too wide a range to be trusted. Fine for torching but untrustworth for fusing.
This has turned in to a very interesting discussion. For the project that I have in mind it will simply have to be a case of try it and see.....I don't think that a strong chance of the idea failing miserably is enough to put me of giving it a go.
Now where are all those extra hours in the day that I badly need?
Quote from: Jolene on October 17, 2009, 07:06:23 PM
This has turned in to a very interesting discussion. For the project that I have in mind it will simply have to be a case of try it and see.....I don't think that a strong chance of the idea failing miserably is enough to put me of giving it a go.
Now where are all those extra hours in the day that I badly need?
Many of us suffer from Tooitis.
Too many ideas - too little time.
QuoteMany of us suffer from Tooitis.
Too many ideas - too little time.
Yep
I am now waiting to see the 104 madness which lurks in my kiln. Schrödinger's cat...
Oooh sounds interesting Charlotte
I was going to try fusing from the same rod, just to figure out temperatures really as I echo Dennis' comments about compatability and wince everytime I see people mixing things like Bullseye and Effetre! I wouldn't even want to put that under the polarising filters to see the stress in there!
My 104 samples survived! I have checked them through polarising filters and they look fine. Sorry about the crappy photo...
(http://www.theflyingbedstead.com/Auction/BigBangBeads/151009/testpieces.jpg)
I have taken the temperature a bit too high, but here is my schedule for the SC2 using a kiln shelf placed halfway up:
Ramp 1 250 to 715C hold 25 mins
Ramp 2 60 to 515C hold 60
Ramp 2 60 to 370C hold 0
I used kilnfire paper, and there was no problem with sticking. I'll be running the same program except I'll be taking it to 710 today. The samples I used were some Effetre sheet from Martin and Effetre Transparent Teal, Opaline Yellow, Opaline Nile Green, Opaline Grass Green, Trans Black stringer and a 104 murrini cane which I made, and I can't remember exactly what's in it...except lots of Copper Green.
Ooh those are very pretty Charlotte
Thank you Jo - you are lovely for saying so...and they are only test samples!
Following on from my first set of tests, I have used slightly larger sections of glass (same thickness) and I reduced the firing to 710C and the test pieces placed at the back were not quite fully fused, and the one at the front was slightly over fused - rather like my previous samples. It is amazing how delicate the balance can be!
I will be testing a larger sheet tonight, to see how that works, and I think I'll adjust the schedule to 708C and hold it for 30mins instead.
Fab testing, Charlotte! And thanks to all for all the valuable information that has been shared!