Ok so I am a real newbie...just been on the torch for over a month. So right now its purely a fun thing to do for me. But I have been wondering......
How long after you lit your first torch did you actually start selling?
How did you start...on the internet, locally or do you have a shop....etc?
How do you know that your bead is even good enough to sell?
xxx
V
Hi Zia
In terms of months I a relative newbie although I am lucky enough to have torched fulltime since last November. But other more experienced lampworkers may have better advice. However, my view would be get your work seen and get feedback from others. For ages I didn't sell because I thought my beads weren't "good enough" to sell. I started wearing my beads and had lots of positive comments which gave me the confidence to go ahead. My DH is great for constructive critisism or being blunt to put it another way! If he doesn't think it's any good he will say so-and he has! I don't sell much through my website yet, will eventually list on etsy but at the moment orders from friends, friends of friends and a retail outlet are enough to keep up with.
Hope that's useful to you, good luck
Helen x
Thank you......
Yeah my DH is a good critic too, whereas my lil one loves everything, even the broken ones.....lol
I suppose I do need loads more confidence to show my beads....I dont even really wear them! for fear someone wont comment or not like them. I love each piece I make, so they just hide in my bead box! I kinda want everyone to love this thing as I do...which is totally unrealistic......grins. And the pieces I thought were awful DH likes....!!!
It was about 18 months before I was happy enough with anything to sell it and about 2 years before I actually sold any beads. :)
I guess I sold my first beads about three months after I started making them. I sold on Ebay then because then I figured that people would have a choice - whether to buy them or not and in fact they could also set the price as I sold at auction rather than as buy it now. When you first start it's very awkward to know what to charge for your work.
To know whether you are ready or not to sell you need to ask a few questions:
Firstly - technically speaking are your beads up to scratch -
Are the holes neat and dimpled or are they ragged and sharp?
Are they sound structurally - are there any cracks or defects?
Do they "hang" right? If it's a pendant is it balanced? Or if it's meant to be a centred round bead is it? Wonky, off centred beads are okay - and lots of people like them but if they bought your beads for a specific reason - i.e. if they need them to "sit right" on a piece of jewellery they may actually send them back if they don't! So make sure your customers are aware of what it is you are selling.
Are they annealed?
If you tick all of the above boxes then there's no reason why you shouldn't sell. Whether you think your beads are aethestically pleasing is an entirely different matter - but the buying public will decide that for you!
Well said Sally
Helen
oh thank you sal for your answer....as usual you are very helpful!
The thing that bugs me atm the moment is the annealing question...
It will be ages before I can buy a Kiln, I need a decent torch first lol. I have been discussing this problem on other sites and personally with some beady ppl....
It seems there is a discrepancy regarding annealing. Many feel that its enough to cool down a bead "properly" using vermculite or a bead blanket and feel that the "annealing" trend is just a way to promote better and feel that annealing is for ppl too lazy to cool their beads down slowly.......others mean a kiln is an absolute must for durability and strength! But then again...we are working with glass!
Having been on this site I naturally feel closer to the annealers, than the non annealers yet does that mean I wont be able to sell my beads until I get a kiln......that could take years...there is so much I need first....
xxx
V
i think annealing is important as they nead to go throug the process to make sure they are sound. especially if you are selling them......i am a long way off a kiln and only been torching since may so know where you are comming from re selling and having confedence in your beads .......i am saving all but the worst beads and will ask one of the lovely people who have offered kiln space to do a batch once i have a batch worth doing !!....there is a list of those offering kiln space but not sure if any near you as you are not in uk i seam to remember ?
Yeah! I am in Austria......and not aware of anyone doing batch annealing here......and the ppl I have asked kinda look at me as though I am crazy!
but then maybe I am....grins
You know I definately wouldn't sell without annealing my beads for sure.
What you have to remember is that once you start selling you start to build a reputation - and if you're first sales aren't up to scratch you won't get repeat business. It's hard and frustrating I know as we all want our beads to be adored. It took me quite a while before I was happy to sell - and looking back on reflection, what I was happy with after 6 months - going on a furter 6 months I still realised I had a lot to learn. Obviously time frames are different for each people - but what Sal said was sound advice.
You know as long as you cover the cost of P&P you could still send to people in the UK to anneal! What I would say though is not to clean them till aferwards.
Hi Zia. You'll find that many German lampworkers do not kiln anneal, they flame anneal their beads. A supplier we used in Germany when we were setting up in France advised of this (although I do kiln anneal). If you are on a German forum this may be why your question is being met with a puzzled reaction. If you are selling locally in Austria, then the kiln annealing may not be as much as an issue but you would have to state this clearly on your website for buyers further afield like the UK/US :)
Cooling beads in a fibre blanket or vermiculite definitely does NOT anneal your beads. It only allows the beads to cool at a slower rate than they would if they were left out in the air.
I've done a few checks with polarisers on this - vermiculite cooled beads appear to be as stressy as beads which are cooled simply by leaving them on your rod rest. I think everyone would agree that a bead left to cool this way is not annealed.
To anneal properly you have to allow the outside and the inside of a glass object to cool slowly and at the same rate - a typical cooling rate from 520 C to 420 C is around 1 degree per minute for a typical bead. Even by having the vermiculite in a slow cooker won't particularly help as the slow cooker temperature is way way lower than the critical temperatures 420 - 520 C.
Annealing speeds are directly proportional to the size of the object - a large paperweight of around 120mm diameter can need several days to anneal.
Annealing is a tricky subject - if you look at the imported lampwork beads that you can buy by weight - none of them are annealed and they definitely aren't cleaned. That's one of the resaons that these beads are sold by weight rather than individually. People still buy them - and for most applications they're fine - but they are what they are.
As artisan lampworkers we have a responsibility to let people know exactly WHY they are paying more for our beads than for imported lamwork. Many lampwork buyers are very aware that beads need to be annealed and would not touch a bead if it wasn't. Also - as we like to use lots of exotic things in our glass now - silver, silvered glass and the fact that many of us are happily mixing together glass from different manufacturers without a care. I would actually argue that there's MORE need for us to anneal our work than any of the imported lampwork makers.
It is a pain trying to find someone who will anneal your work but it is very worth while. Trudi is right abou thte reputation aspect. Good luck with the sales and finding someone to anneal!
Just looking at the above post - flame annealing is an option but to be honest very few people are prepared to anneal their beads in the flame for enough time to make it a viable option. Just wafting the bead in a propane flame for a minute is still NOT annealing.
HI Billie
Thank you for clearing up some of my confusion.
The course I did taught me to flame anneal - I assume thats what it is.....taking your beads temperature down slowly in the flame by moving it to the back in and out - time consuming until its ready to go into the heated vermculite (sp!) for further cooling down...until cold. This should make the bead as strong if done properly.
I am amazed at how "cheap" the kiln annealed beads are in the UK, the wonderful works that are not only time consuming but extremely beautiful. With some of you charging "only" 12 pounds for a set of more than 6 beads....that can never cover the cost of the equipment required (torch, kiln, gas, oxycons, glass etc.), tax, postage, and all the time spent "marketing" the beads. Let alone covering the time spent making and annealing these works of art...
I went to a local show the other day and was surprised at the prices of the stuff on sale there. It was for ceramic and felt beadwork, i dont feel that ceramic beads need nearly half as much time and skills as the glass beads need and yet she was charging, and the ppl were paying amazing amounts for her things. And I found her prices fair....(my pockets where empty when I left.....grins)
Someone on here was selling beautiful animal beads for only 5 pounds the other day......that can never cover costs.....!!
Just wonder how things are done.....sighs....or whether I should just keep all my beaded goodies for myself....grins....
Sal, I had this argument with my in-laws when I pointed out beads had to be kiln annealed before selling. Because they had gone through a German supplier for all their equipment and were advised flame annealing was all that was required I was met with "it's a conspiracy by the kiln sellers". Strangely, as soon as I arrived with my kiln I was batch annealing for them, and now they have their own kiln. I'm just pointing out that Zia may possibly be getting the same information from German forums and that the lampworking buying public in Austria may be used to local lampwork not being kiln annealed. Zia, I'm not recommending flame annealing only, I'm pointing out what might be occurring where you're located and what is acceptable by local buyers. It's not my marketplace so I have no idea. It's worth asking on any other forum you're a member of if there is someone who could batch anneal for you locally, or if they are selling without kiln annealing and what they buyers expectation is.
What has confused me most is that Lauscha! do not kiln anneal their work! They rely purely on the quality of their glass.....
Wonders if that has anything to do with it...
Hmmmm... I've no idea what's behind it. Dora Schubert is based in Germany and she kiln anneals. Teresa Laliberte is based in Germany and kiln anneals. Recommendations coming from any UK lampworker (and me although I'm based in France :)) is that if you're selling to the public your beads need to be properly annealed in a kiln.
I do know my in-laws had their classes in Germany, with Kristina Logan (who also kiln anneals), but as far as the German based glass and tool suppliers they used were concerned, flame annealing for about 8 minutes then putting your beads in vermiculite was all that was required. I just wondered if you were also being advised that through a German forum... It's interesting though :)
Well.....although I advocate kiln annealing for selling lampwork beads I do have these observations on annealing.
Many "old school" flameworkers/lampworkers do not anneal their work. I have various little glass animals and a great duck (complete with nightcap, hot water bottle and candle) made by a friend of mine who was a professional scientific glass blower. A quick look with polarisers reveals that this work is indeed not annealed. However, it has been around now for over a year and I've no doubt it will be around for much much longer. I have various other pieces which would be termed "vintage" - they too are not annealed and still in one piece.
My argument is this: Many of the scientific glass workers had a very thorough apprenticeship in glass. They understand how glass works. If you are ever priviliged to take a lesson with a sculptural lampworker you should learn a heck of a lot about "what makes glass tick" - and how to avoid putting unnecessary stresses into the glass.
Many beadmakers can make beautiful and accomplished beads and yet not know the first thing about how glass behaves. I've been making beads for ten years and yet I've only scratched the surface of "lampworking" proper. That's not meant as a criticism to anyone making beads - but making beads is a very very small subset of lampworking. As beadmakers we like to include all sorts of stuff in our beads that aren't there in other lampworking disciplines. Adding foil, different coe frit, silver, even mixing manufacturers glass puts a strain on your glass. So why not anneal? Why not do anything you can to make sure your beads are still around in ten, twenty or a hundred years time? Last thing I want is for someone to send me a cracked bead back in the post.
And anyway - kilns are not just for annealing - you can do loads of other things in them too - especially if you want to do sculptural work - sometimes you need to preheat or garage your work. There's no way you'd be able to make a paperweight or similar without a kiln. You'd be nuts not have a kiln.
And well said Zia - yes, we charge WAY TOO LITTLE for our beads in this country. If we undervalue them then so will our customers.
In addition, if you want to do bigger focals they are likely
to crack if not kiln annealed.
Marg x
working this whole selling thing through my head....
a rough account!only!
700€ cheaper kiln
500€ set up torch, oxycon etc
100€ glass
250€ course
(now this is not including taxes time and any other equipment required!)
minimal total 1550€
at a price of 4€ a bead
I would have to make 387 beads and sell them to even cut even!
Now I see why so many call this a paid hobby....thats without even considering all the glass wastage while practising.....
sighs
xxx
V
Oh - don't be sad Zia, your first sale will be so exciting that you'll forget all about how much it all cost!! ;)
hehehe thats what I am trying to convice DH of right now......he isnt convinced yet especially after I bought loads of lauscha and effetre glass this week.....(although still on a weedkiller......grins). Am trying to convince him I NEED a kiln and a bobcat....or perhaps a minor...not sure....
wonders why hubbies never take "hobbies" seriously until you start making money with them........laughs
I have been making beads now since end of March 09. I am not yet up to selling standard.
It was Mum's birthday this weekend and I wanted to give her something that I had made. (she really likes home made bits) So decided on a theme for jewelry, pink (and not round). Got to grips with Rubino, sent them of to be annealed, Thank you Sabine, made it into necklace and charm bracelet (I will be putting pictures in the show and tell)
Having had problems getting insurance for my flat (only because I had to get the management company involved and they had to check the lease and of course flaff about, panic um and er. Then there is the not aloud to run a business from the flat) The whole experience has frightened me with the thought what if one of them breaks while some one it wearing it. Having stood on some broken glass the other week (yes I know - it was only a small bit - yes its out and if you want a truly horrible story about broken glass and feet then Ill tell you about my sister walking home barefoot from the pub) and seeing how much it bled the last thing I would want to do is expose some one to that.
So before I start selling.
Kiln (my own as I would feel very cheek borrowing someone elses for profit)
Insurance (not just to cover my own 'bottom' but to help if I cause some one serious hurt)
I agree with you Krysia - kiln and insurance before you even consider selling.
I have just been doing my bead selling accounts today from since I started selling in about March last year. I started off on ebay just to get a feel of whether people liked my beads enough to buy them and they did - though it probably cost me a lot more to sell them than I charged. Over the last year I have improved my bead making techniques considerably (I cringe a bit at some of the early beads I sold actually!) and as my skills and therefore the quality of my beads has increased, I have felt justified in raising the prices. I have not made them extortionate though as I do have customers who have grown alongside me and I don't want to price them out. Though I recognise that they are still probably a little underpriced for the work and materials that go into them and that this can have a negative impact on the beadmakers who do this for a living. Pricing is difficult as you can seem to be valuing your work too low or too high and you have to establish yourself in the market before people are willing to pay proper money for your beads.
Kazx
Quote from: Kaz on June 08, 2009, 12:46:18 PM
(I cringe a bit at some of the early beads I sold actually!)
Kazx
If people want to buy them don't complain ;)
Quote from: Krysia on June 08, 2009, 01:14:51 PM
Quote from: Kaz on June 08, 2009, 12:46:18 PM
(I cringe a bit at some of the early beads I sold actually!)
Kazx
Me too :-[
I sold my first beads through my website after about 3 months, maybe bit less, I was happy with them enough to sell them at the time, but I did sell them for peanuts, tut tut. I'll probably look back in a few years at beads I'm making now and think the same I don't know.
I put them straight on the website with paypal 'pay now' buttons, did no advertising/networking NOTHING and I couldn't belive it when the first sale came through after about 2 weeks.
On the annealing thing, I wear a bracelet I made with a set of 9 of my very first set of beads, it's the ones in my avtar, they weren't annealed in a kiln, flame annealed and in vermiculite only. I tell you they've had some hammer, dropped on the flags outside, kitchen floor, kids have played with it the lot, not a crack in sight so far. I keep meaning to take it appart and anneal them but have never got round to it :-\
Kate xx
Zia, I've only ever used a 'weed killer' and I'm quite pleased with the results, theres not much I can't do that others do on a big torch in fact some people have been pretty amazed at some of the stuff I've turned out on my torch.
I am always willing to anneal for you if you send the return postage. Many people batch annealed for me before I had my own kiln for which I'm eternally greatful. I saved for over a year for my kiln, birthday money, Christmas money, money from sales etc. You will get there in the end if you want to.
Oh i want to........
Its trying to convince hubby that it is necessary...as he finances it! I think KILN he thinks another window for our new house...lol!
I happily dont get anything for birthdays (except from DH and the kid!) or christmas either lol...and now that I have stopped working full time to be a "'SAHM" ......
smiles....
might just take you up on the offer to batch anneal.....smiles....have to make enough beads first....
I was looking at some kilns and have found a few that cost less than 500€ lalthough I do wonder if I shouldnt just wait and get a proper nice one first...
thanks once again for al your answers....and the cheer-upping!
xxxx
How to get a kiln out of your hubby:
Make some beads and let them thermal crack, then cry because your beautiful beads are broken......repeat as many times as necessary until your hubby feels so sorry for you he buys you a kiln. ;D
I promise it works; tried and tested ;)
(Although I didn't cry I was just genuinely very miserable LOL)
My beads are ok most of the time, its doing the things that take long...and sculptural ones that generally crack....Got really upset the other night when I made for my taste a rather beautiful marble for lil one and it cracked...on one side and is funnily enough still stuck on the mandrel, cant get it off somehow! Its when I started thinking about the kiln...sadly though I will probably have to wait until father christmas sends his lil elves to buy me one...for doubt whether I will get one sooner..so many other things to pay for and buy first.
and then there are all those lovely shards and murrinis and frits on here just tempting me ..... ;)...
Zia,
You've received loads of good advice about the benefits of annealing and a few offers for batch annealing - I took a few FHF members up on their offer of kiln time when I first started making beads I really wanted to keep. It's worth it I think.
Don't discount a used kiln to save some money - they is not a lot to wear out in a kiln and no moving parts. Since being a member of this forum since January this year I've seen a few come up for sale - probably no more than one a month, though. I bought a third-hand Paragon Caldera with Bead Collar for about half the price of buying new. I could have paid just a little more than I did to get a new kiln but that would have been the cheaper construction rather than fire-brick and much less adaptable to other kiln-based hobbies. I would think that if you keep saving and keep your eyes open you might find one that it is suitable in form and price soon enough.
Good luck
Neil
Thanks Neil, and yes I have had soon good advice on here, on all my posts!
This is a great forum!
Unfortunately I live in Austria so wont be making much use of a kiln sold on here, the postage would cost a fortune! As many of the Austrians I know that bead dont anneal and those that do, wont sell, it seems I will have to buy a new one....but patience is a virtue...
And as I always keep telling my lil one...If there is a will there is a way!
thanks again
V
Postage may not be that much actually. You can have a box upto 25kg sent from here to the Netherlands by courier for £25 so I would have thought a kiln would be similar.
the best things come to those who wait!! i can't say this is always my motto, but...where there's a will there's a way is def a good one to.
i started selling mine in march this year and have watched the prices people pay go up, and come back for more because they like what they buy ;D it's a very good feeling and nerve racking at the same time. pricing is sooo very hard i find. struggling with my website to be at the mo so ebay will be my place for now. although, saying that, i set up on etsy with another name a year or so ago, with the plan to sell my cards and jewellery on there...maybe i'll check to see if i still have it!?
other peoples advice is usually good but the general publics is the best i think.
when you get your kiln, jump on in there and don't look back ;D
would put pics on of two sets i made the other day and sold for £38 each...feelings of pleasure and guilt followed:-( but have no idea how to get them from my computer on to here? such a dimbo ::)
On this topic: I'm not even close to considering trying to sell my beads, but if someone for some reason would want to buy my ugly little practice beads, how should I price them? If I charge only the cost of the glass or some such, will the rest of the beadmakers in the world be mad at me? :-)
Or should I just fuse them into cabs and pretend they never existed as beads (and charge outrageous prices for the super special artwork cabs)? ;-)
Quote from: Margram on June 05, 2009, 01:23:42 PM
In addition, if you want to do bigger focals they are likely
to crack if not kiln annealed.
Marg x
Wot she said! I annealed in my fathers kiln in batches, but as soon as I tried making lager or complex beads they just cracked before they ever got near the kiln. So frustrating :( especially if you've used a lot of glass or taken a long time to get a beautiful result. I began 18months ago, blind as a bat and thinking I could get away with the minimum amount of stuff, and for a while I did. But as you improve you'll want to upgrade your equipment and add to it too. As I said I began blindly...I had a HH and some prophane and some glass. I now have A HUGE amount of glass (and I still want/need more) Loads of tools, tons of frit, yards of stringers and twisites, about 6 presses, and I have an oxycon Minor Burner and a Kiln. I felt that if I was selling my beads then I should offer some sort of quality and I could'nt, hand on heart sell stuff that I did'nt consider good quality. Listen to what Sal says, she is absolutley right on all counts, (she was also my inspiration to start this mad hobby!! ;D) You will be able to afford a kiln eventually, and to upgrade your stuff too. As for when did I start selling, again like Sal said when I knew I would want to buy my beads and they met my standards of workmanship.
Janey x