I've finally gathered together lots of new tools and bits n pieces, including lots of rather pricey silver tubes, and sat down to do lots of silver coring today.
I finished up with 3 perfect cores, one almost perfect but it appears to have stress lines round the edge of the flared tube, and these poor specimens
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/biggirlsblouseuk/P5070195.jpg)
Can anybody give me some advice please? I just don't know why some worked and some didn't. I cut the tube to length, annealed and pickled it, then took care to follow the Impress instructions. The first one to split was 6mm tube (top left) then there were 3 using 5.5 mm tube, the pink one was the last one, using 5mm tube.
So now I've got to buy yet more tools to rescue these beads (I'm assuming I need a saw and a vice?).
My new press arrived from Maria Louisa today, I shall be thoroughly Peed off if the silver splits in those mahoosive beads.
Oh b****r Julie >:( Gorgeous beads - I hope you do manage to rescue them :-\
oh that's a pain :(
hope you manage to rescue the beads and get to the bottom of the problem xx
I know nothing, but, having watched Charlotte at the flame off demonstrate not on a bead cause she brought the wrong size tube, are you doing it slow enough, turning it too much each turn etc and have you checked that you have the right size thingummy in the bottom bit for the size tube you are using. Don't know if any of this addvice is any good but thought I'd suggest it. Gorgeous beads.
Yes, I'm doing it slow, following instructions - 3/4 turn at first, then 1/2 a turn (although often I only do 1/4 to be really careful). The split is most often happening after the first or second turn - and as it is often splitting at the top end on the first turn, I don't think it can be to do with the size of the peg at the bottom ... ???
don't want to teach you to suck eggs but how are you annealing. maybe the silver is not "soft" enough!
Julie, do you preheat the silver tube first?
Only the thin walled silver tube (0,3mm) can be used without heating first.
The thicker walled tubes will split because the silver isn't soft enough for it to core.
It's too difficult to explain in English for me how it works exactly but if no one else knows I will try it later for you using a translater for the words I don't know.
I heat my silver tube till glowing and then slow count to ten keeping the glow but obvoiusly not melting it I then quench it in cold water and then core my bead! I not done any for ages but my success rate was 95% using dapping punches and hammer not bead liner! silver core death was the result of the glass bead smashing and not the silver splitting!
HTH a little
Maria Louisa, I think you're talking about "annealing" the tube - same as Sam.
Well yes, I think I'm doing it right but this is the part of the process that I'm least confident with. I've got a small butane pencil torch and a kiln brick. I'm cutting the tube to length then I place it on the kiln brick and heat all over with the torch, making sure the silver blackens evenly all over. Then I continue to heat till it glows and keep heating for a few seconds, then pick up with my long tweezers and drop into cold water.
I tried it one time with my lampworking torch and completely overheated the silver so it melted - so I know that it doesn't take long for this to happen. Maybe I'm being too cautious. Any tips on how to know how long to anneal for?
CROSS POSTED SAM - I'll read your post now!!
Can i just say i said the obviously not to melt thing cos in my silversmithing classes i was a disaster with soldering always melted the silver. Think I am too used to melting the snot out of glass my control goes a bit with soldering!!! LOL
I used guidance from the dawn and evan tut posted on here!
Oh yes, I've watched that a few times - I think I'll watch the annealing bit again on there, good idea Sam.
I suppose it didn't help that I was annealing in daylight so its not so easy to see exactly what's glowing.
Interesting.
I did my coring using thick tube with this tool and I did NOT anneal my tube and it was good.
It looks to me like you may have overheated the tube and ended up making it fragile instead of malleable. I know about this because I'm good at knackering silver by overheating when I have to anneal a piece loads of times. ;D
Annealing is best done with the light off so you can see what colour you are getting. You want a cherry red colour not bright orange, and you want to play the flame along the tube with an even stroke. I don't normally time myself.
I've noticed when I get it too hot the silver surface bubbles a bit like when you cook a poppadom in the microwave. ;D
By the way I'm not saying I know what the problem is but I do know what happens to silver when it's overheated, it just ends up splitting.
Try without annealing, I've done all mine with this tool without annealing, and it was thick tube.
Know nothing about annealing silver, but can I chuck in an ignorant question? Why can't you anneal the silver in a kiln?
i think cos although the name is the same it is a different process with a different end result! annealing glass is about getting rid of the stress in the glass so it is less likely to shatter annealing silver is about making it workable! I hope I got that right else I am about to look a complete muppet! ;)
Ok, looking at the tubing I would say you've over heateed it during the annealing process. It's a pain when it happens as you've found out cos you only really know it's happened neal when it cracks! A good tip already mentioned is to anneal in dim lighting as you truly see the red colour then. I've had it happen a couple of times too. I must add that I have never really used the machines though as I dap each and every one of mine by hand. I find this way gives better control particularly if the bead is a hairs width less than perfect ;) :D
Annealing silver is not quite the same as glass. With glass you're cooling the whole thing down at the same rate so that you don't have stress between all the layers as they would cool at different rates.
Annealing silver is still about removing stress and can be done in a kiln but doesn't need to be be because it is very quick and doesn't need slow cooling. We're heating the silver to make the crystals grow again so that the metal is malleable. After lots of work hardening the silver gets harder to move as the crystals get stuck up against the grain boundaries and can't fill any of the gaps between the crystals.........then we have to anneal again, unless we're ready to polish.
Going back to the split problem, it could be under under annealed, but I can't see it myself as I've successfully cored without annealing with this tool. The state of the silver in your tubes does also look to me like they've been overheated.
I agree with Sarah, it could be that you are overheating the silver. It then starts to crystallize, and you can introduce brittleness (is that a word??) instead of softening the metal. Another possibility is that you chuck it into cold water too early. It should be below 500 deg C before giving it the cold shock. Quenching from higher temps "can cause distortion and even cracking" as it says in the sterling silver data sheet from Cooksons and Argex. I have tried to make silver cores manually a couple of times and what happened to me is exactly like those pics (except that you have gorgeous beads inside the cores..). Do you have a jewellers saw? Then it's easy to remove the cores. If not, I'd be happy to do it if you send them to me.. ;D ;D No, I promise, I'd send the beads back.....after some time, anyway ;D ::)
There's been a couple of posts since I started writing (yep, I know, I'm a bit slow) - you can anneal silver in a kiln, and, in my opinion, it's probably a lot more controlled, but if you are doing one tiny bit of metal it is not time nor cost efficient. If you do a big bit of metal or a whole lot of cores it would make it worthwhile.
Oh yes, I think you've got it!
Thanks Sarah and Jaq!
I did notice an odd look to the surface once or twice and did wonder about overheating.
Sarah, I tried a few a week or two ago without annealing and the trouble with them is that I can't get the edge of the flare to really come down onto the bead, so they're all a bit loose.
This is another question I've been wanting to ask actually - is it acceptable for the core to turn in the bead, or should it be tight?
OH BLIMEY - 2 MORE REPLIES!
Thanks for your helpful answers!
i don't usually have that much silver spare on each side, i found they split when i had too much...
So could you anneal a whole length of tube in a kiln then? I'm thinking this could help me out here, I hate it when I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing.
I got some tube today from an etsy seller and she says its pre-annealed - I was a bit unsure about this and thought I'd anneal it again anyway but maybe I don't need to then?
Too much silver? AAAGH!!
I need more rules!
I think the Impress instructions suggest cutting tube between 3.6mm and 4.2mm longer than the width of the bead - I tend to aim for the longer amount, just cos I thought it would be better. :(
I know, isn't it hard to get them tight when you don't anneal!
Although it's harder to bash the edge down with a rawhide mallet, it can be done, eventually, well after 5 minutes, and you don't get all the dents that need filing out and polishing that you do when I do it totally by hand.
I've been bashing the edges of the unanealled ones with a rawhide mallet for a week and they still won't tighten!
Hmmmm ... could I put these on a batch anneal schedule in the kiln, then bash em some more?
i would try the shorter amount
i measure my bead width and add 3mm for the tube!
Quote from: Lush! on May 07, 2009, 09:37:54 PM
So could you anneal a whole length of tube in a kiln then? I'm thinking this could help me out here, I hate it when I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing.
I got some tube today from an etsy seller and she says its pre-annealed - I was a bit unsure about this and thought I'd anneal it again anyway but maybe I don't need to then?
The problem with annealing the whole rod is that when you cut it afterwards (I assume you use a tube cutter) you harden the silver again, just where you want it soft! Sorry!
Darn :D
Ha ha, I was thinking that too.
Please, go ahead and try - I speak only of what I have researched, I have not experimented myself!!
Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Julie I am so sorry to hear that you've had problems with the thin tubing. Maybe I have been lucky but I have not yet had a split with it. To anneal I heat the tube (after it has been cut to length) to a cherry red colour. I haven't tried NOT annealing it. Maybe we can meet up so I can try to understand what has gone wrong...
Ever wish you haven't posted something?!!!
I don't wish that at all :D I did think about posting in your thread but had a feeling this might go on a bit!
Getting together could be a great idea, although I'm gonna be trying out some of these ideas tomorrow and I'll be back to say how I've got on.
I never got round to buying a beadlining tool, but did have trouble with quite a few of the above issues when I started coring too Julie. The silver not going flat cos I cut it too long on my first few beads, occasional splits down the (virtually invisible til it goes) soldered seam of tubing. I also dap entirely by hand, but do still get the occasional splitter when I get impatient, hammer too hard and/or force the flare too fast.
And as far as I know with my limited silver experience, Julie's right about cutting it after annealing, any manipulation of the silver will start to harden it again.
Dunno if any of that helps - hope you sort it, they're lovely beads. ;D
HP x
Thank goodness - I was getting worried!!!!
I will keep a look out for this thread tomorrow (whilst doing the day job ::)) but if you have any probs just post or pm me!
Meeting up would be lovely too!
I'm so sorry, I forgot to say, they are lovely beads. I think you should send them to me to make sure they are suitable for coring.
Hehe, thanks Sarah - thanks all of you for your lovely compliments and all your very helpful input.
Isn't this forum fantastic ... :-* :-*
If your cores are spinning try finishing off the flare with the upturned flat end on a dapping punch, that should get you a closer fit ;)
You need to heat til Cherry Red for annealing. Don't go higher in temp.
My tubes did this if I tried to flare them out too quickly - maybe you're going too fast.
If you heat too strongly you'll get the silver to reticulate - pure silver will come to the surface. It will make the silver very brittle so I suspect you're over heating when annealing.
Quote from: astringofbeads on May 07, 2009, 09:28:09 PM
Ok, looking at the tubing I would say you've over heateed it during the annealing process. It's a pain when it happens as you've found out cos you only really know it's happened neal when it cracks! A good tip already mentioned is to anneal in dim lighting as you truly see the red colour then. I've had it happen a couple of times too. I must add that I have never really used the machines though as I dap each and every one of mine by hand. I find this way gives better control particularly if the bead is a hairs width less than perfect ;) :D
ditto to wot Jaq says
I had exactly the same problem when I first used the Impress, and I emailed Dave to ask for his advice. This is part of his reply:
"I am surprised your tubing split with 1/4 turn increments. That is very
unusual. 1/4 to 1/2 turn is right for the first couple to prevent that.
My guess is you had a nick or defect in the edge that focused the stress
at that point. I think it is probably a fluke, and will not be a problem
in general.
I don't find annealing is necessary at all with this tool, but if your
tubing is rated hard (rather than half-hard as most is) then that might
help. If you don't find it happening again, I wouldn't bother with that."
I have since had success by making absolutely sure that the cut edge of the tube is completely smooth....Dave's Deburing Tool is good for this.....and by making the turns with the Impress quite slowly and carefully. I stopped annealing the tube as he said it wasn't necessary. I also found that it was sometimes necessary to tap down the edges to stop the tube spinning inside the bead.
Dave is really helpful and I'm sure he'd like to know if you are having problems.
Hope this helps. :) :)
Julie, I indeed meant the same as Sam about 'annealing' the tube.
Here in Holland we use a 'creme-brulee' torch for it, it's only 10 euro's.
Yes ML, that's what I've got too!
Lyn, what size tube/mandrel do you use (and where do you get your tube from?).
I had a much more successful day today, thanks to all the helpful comments. I started off with pre-annealed copper tube from Ginko on Etsy (pic on S&T), then I had a go with some 4.5mm silver tube from Argex. I annealed it very carefully, did it in a dark corner of the garage so I could see the glow and didn't do it for too long. The diameter was actually too small for the Impress peg but I took it really slowly and it worked quite well, not perfect but NO SPLITTING! Yay!
So then I used the same tube on a large focal I made with my super duper new custom press from beadpress.nl - I had to adapt my beadliner to take these big focals, I'll take a pic of the adaptation tomorrow. I carefully annealed and (as the ends of the bead were a bit wonky) I even more carefully used the tool and got this, tada!
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/biggirlsblouseuk/P5080282.jpg)
I am definitely going to have a go at the batch annealing idea with the first load of beads I made, to see if I can get them to bash tighter - I'll report back!
Thanks Julie, this has been a great thread as I've had trouble with cores splitting too. Might get back to it when my jewellery course is finished in 6 weeks time.
Nice happy ending, and I love that bead ;D
Marg x
Quote from: Lush! on May 09, 2009, 12:09:34 AM
Lyn, what size tube/mandrel do you use (and where do you get your tube from?).
I use 5mm OD, 4mm ID silver tube from Rashbel.
Where does everyone else get their tube from?
I don't know where to put this, so I'll just add it onto this thread :) Have had my Impress for a couple of weeks, and got to play the last few days. Here's the results (the bead at the back right is made by Ingrid, Bruntie's beads - I finally worked up courage to core a "proper" bead, not only my old wonkies :)
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh238/have-a-beer/first-bhb.jpg)
I shall be very happy with this tool!! Was a bit frustrated in the beginning, but have sussed it now, I think. Have tried with both annealed and not annealed tube. Although it's a bit harder to turn the un-annealed tube I prefer it. I find that if the bead is very even it doesn't need the mallet hammer much. Most of my beads are a bit uneven, though, so need a little touch with a plastic hammer at the end. On these beads I have only used a handkerchief (clean!) and some silver rouge to get the shine.
Yay! You got one!
Those are fab, Julie! I've pretty much given up with the hammer at all, it just doesn't seem to make any difference. I now tend to give the beadliner a few extra little turns at the end to finish off and I think I'm getting away with it!
We'll have to compare notes properly on Saturday ;)
Quote from: Lush! on June 22, 2009, 10:42:20 PM
Yay! You got one!
Those are fab, Julie! I've pretty much given up with the hammer at all, it just doesn't seem to make any difference. I now tend to give the beadliner a few extra little turns at the end to finish off and I think I'm getting away with it!
We'll have to compare notes properly on Saturday ;)
Thanks, Julie! Saturday's the day :)