Okey Dokey....
I am planning a quick move onto bulk fuel for my hothead due to cost of Mapp gas. Have been mooching a little this morning on this subject and came across a rant by some guy relating to it 'being the most dangerous thing he has ever heard of'
link http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/2007/12/30/bulk-tanks-and-the-hot-head-torch/
ok now I know loads of you peeps use this system, is he scaremongering or should I/we be worried. My plan was to have my gas bottle outside of my shed, in a sheltered spot, use quick release connections and a flashback arrestor, BUT I am a big scaredycat and just wanted some reassurance that all of you on bulk for the hothead find it ok?
Thanks in advance,
Mandyx
None of us have gone BOOM yet ;)
xxx
I know ...lol,
but being dodgy around gas bottles at best of times it freaked me out a little, so I suppose as long as all relevant safety is followed, it's gonna be ok? My fella is laughing his head off, he uses gas everyday, and is used to it...but I got a little nervy when I read that one!!!! ;D
Mandyx
Quote from: Mandy2009 on April 02, 2009, 10:46:54 AM
a rant
As Les has pointed out, all of us who have used bulk propane haven't gone BOOM, take the appropriate safety precautions & you'll be fine ;)
Consider how many BBQ gas cylinders are standing around in people's gardens, Mandy. Just make sure to turn the gas off at the bottle after each time you torch.
Yep girls...duly noted...
my other half has just returned from the welding place, I now have a huge gas bottle 19 k I think!!! looks massive anyway, and all the bits to hook me up...so I suppose all my worries have been dispelled by the fact that I can now melt glass..haha
I dunno what was worse the other day...getting all my gear + mapp gas and having a go..or running out of mapp gas after 3 hours and having to wait for the bulk stuff till today... it's like
'better to never have lampworked at all..than have lampworked and ran out of gas'
yay i made me own quote!!!!
Right I am off to check up on Dan see what he's upto out there.....and in future I won't believe everything I read.. ;D
Cheers m'dears
Mandyx
I think we've all read that article at some point. And be scared by it, and then realised that there's far more likelihood of being runover by a bus.
How many lampworkers have we heard of getting blown up by their propane?
I rest my case. ;)
Mike always insists that it is impossible to use a flashback and regulator with a HotHead, which is why he says it's so unsafe. He is talking about running it on full tank pressure, with just a hose between the tank and the torch. As dozens of people are happily using flashbacks and regulators, it's a different situation, don't let him scare you off!
I'm not going to read that link or I'll never get in the shed again!! I am new to lampworking, and i am very nervous of the propane gas cylinder. I have mine outside, It has a plastic dustbin upside down on it which has a channel cut up the side for the hose etc. The lid on top and a packet of cement that has got wet and set, just to keep the plastic from blowing away. No way would I have the propane inside my shed! i know it is dangerous stuff. :)
I didn't want to scare anyone..oooh no, I will delete the thread if you all want me too....
being new to this means that when you come across something like that you naturally seek reassurance from those in the know and obviously I suppose knowing you all use them with no problems makes it feel ok. ;)
I really did not mean to upset or annoy anyone by putting this in, was just a tad concerned this morning is all, have relaxed now, as I know I have all necessary safety features in place...whew
;D
Hope you all have a great and productive day!
Mandyx
I wouldn't delete this, other people will find it useful I'm sure.
I'd like to know where all this comes from (the stuff in the article).
Surely if Cindy Jenkins, the (as far as I know) designer of the hothead is using bulk, AND shows it inside under her bench, it's ok to go bulk.
As for the whole bottle of gas filling up the studio quickly, you'd smell it before it got bad, also wouldn't the studio fill up fast from a leak in a dual fuel line?
I would however be cautious about making it really difficult to get to your propane bottle to turn it off in case of emergency. If you have a scare you need to be able to get to the knob on top very quickly, not be faffing around removing padlocks and covers.
The other thing about all this, is that we should all check our hoses and connections on a regular basis. and maybe replace an old hose after several years to ensure that it doesn't crack.
Most people going bulk will buy a new connector and hose, so why would this crack?
It's more likely to crack after several years use, by which time the majority would have moved to a duel fuel torch.
There's lots of scaremongers out there, and some who maybe are a bit careless, but it's important to read all you can, lots of different opinions and weigh up for yourself what appears to be common sense. :)
Jeez! Most rural homes not on a gas mains supply have a propane tank sitting in a cupboard hooked up to their cookers/hobs in the kitchen so they can cook meals - like us here for example :) and as others have said, those of us who have been on bulk fuel with hot heads haven't blown ourselves up so far.
I have a spray bottle filled with water and washing up liquid handy so that I can check the joins for leaks!! If there's a leak it will start to bubble!
I've kept my propane indoors for 3 years now... I'm still here, LOL
Ooops, I feel like I have opened a can of worms here...still better to discuss the relevant points, then people can make their own decisions based on knowledge rather than assumptions!
This guy in the article obviously will not be converted on the old Hothead/Bulk theory, but I am totally happy that if so many lampworkers use this system safely, then I can too.
Still it's worth this being out there for newbies to read, because assuming something is safe doesn't mean it is, and the more we can learn regarding correct operating pressures, safety features, good storage etc the less chance of accidents! ;D
So wishing you all continued happy and safe torching ;D
Mandyx
I notice someone commented on his thread, pointing out that after this technology being around for 13 years no reports (touch wood!) of anyone blowing themselves up in the US.
Far better to remind people not to run with scissors. :-\
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Good tip ;D
This is quite a well known piece from Mike Aurelius. There's a couple of things you have to bear in mind when reading that article:
First - Mike's business is safety - he sells his own safety specs and so on. He's going to be safety minded.
Second - Mike lives in the US - there are different "Codes" and standards in the States which aren't necessarily the same here. For example - their propane regulations are different to ours. To take what someone is saying in the US and apply it to the UK isn't necessarily going to work. Lampworking has been historically more popular in the US than here so we have inherited a lot of US style lampworking rules, tools and lore over here. An obvious example is that propane fittings are all clockwise in the States whereas over here they are anticlockwise - so we always have the ridiculous situation where your torch (which is American) starts off with right hands threads at the hot end and ends up with left hand threads at the gas end. Confuses the heck out of most beginners.
Third - I think the point he's making is that having a large propane bottle in your house is not the safest option. But he doesn't exactly say that in his article. This is true of course - but then, why pick on the hothead - if you have a dual gas surface mix torch in the house with your propane in the house it's just as unsafe. Maybe even more unsafe.
Fourth - As Mary says - we don't know what "bulk propane" means to Mike. He is PROBABLY referring to running the hohead straight off a propane tank - no regulator and no flashback arrestor. If that is the case I would agree. It seems to me that it is just as safe running a hothead via a flashback arrestor and 0-4 bar regulator as it is running any other torch.
Common sense: you are going to be safer in your beadmaking environment where everything is nicely set up and doesn't get bashed/knocked about than the guy who is fixing your flat roof running a bitumen torch off a 20Kg propane cylinder which is perched perilously on the roof guttering.
What IS unsafe is to not bother checking anything. If you change your propane cylinder - check for leaks. Do it every time you change something. Dont' rely on your nose. Use a gas leak detector and spread it liberally round all the fittings to see visually if you have leaks.
Do a visual check on all your hoses - hothead or dual gas torch. After a while the plasticiser in the hoses will degrade and the hoses will start to go brittle. If you see little cracks in the hosing CHANGE the hosing. If there is any kind of damage to the hose - a chaffed or cracked area, CHANGE the hosing.
I keep my gas bottle inside too and have had no problems.
;D
Good sound advice Sally!! :)
Yep Sal good sound advice. I use my set up in my spare room upstairs in my house. The guy would have a FIT if he saw my set up! Having said that I DO check everything on a regular basis. He's just being a bit of a knob!
Janey x
rofl@janey........too funny ;D
The unusual danger with Propane is that it's heavy, it pools rather than dissipates. That's what makes it iffy indoors, it can seep under your floorboards and sit there without you noticing. Just bear that in mind when deciding where to site your cylinder.
so wats the difference between bulk an propane? i thought u got a propane cannistter to go bulk lol arghh
The difference is just size. You can get Mapp gas in 1lb bottles which are about 12 inches long and about 4 inches diameter. You can also get this size in propane but it is not used with the hothead.
"Bulk" refers to a bottle or canister of propane which is much bigger than the 1lb bottles. Ideally you want Mapp in a big quantity but you can't get Mapp in anything bigger than 1lb cans in this country so the next best thing is propane. Propane works better with the hothead when it is used as a large bottle than when it is in 1lb cannister form.
Bulk propane (and this is a term used only in bead making - if you go and ask for a "bulk" bottle of propane you'll get funny looks) - comes in many bottle sizes. 3.9kg is the smallest, 6kg is usual and you can go up to 20 kg. I prefer to use 6kg as they are easy to transport and incidentally the same price as the little 3.9kg. You can get these from all manner of places - B+Q, Morrisons petrol station, tool hire places, calar gas centres, Texaco. garden centres - anywhere where you see that little cage of blue and orange bottles.
Propane is sold in orange bottles. Butane is sold in blue bottles. Avoid the butane as it won't burn right for your hothead.
Choose a cylinder where the gas outlet comes out at the side. If you go for one where the outlet comes straight up vertically you won't be able to get your regulator to fit on the bottle properly.
Hope this helps - if you are in any more doubt you may want to check out my new DVD which tells you all about it.
www.redhotsal.co.uk (Outrageous plug!) :D ;)
Sal, the place where I normally get my propane refills told me I couldn't go bigger than the 6kg because of differing screw sizes of the outlet where you screw in the regulator. I thought it sounded like nonsense.. is it? The place is a garden centre, nearest I can find. Maybe they were on about the ones where the outlet is straight up..
Quote from: Redhotsal on April 04, 2009, 07:57:41 AM
Hope this helps - if you are in any more doubt you may want to check out my new DVD which tells you all about it.
www.redhotsal.co.uk (Outrageous plug!) :D ;)
Love the new sign off, Sal! ;D
Kathryn, I usually have 2 bottles, a 6kg and an 11kg - both have exactly the same screw thread thingy.
Quote from: turnedlight on April 04, 2009, 08:44:04 AM
Sal, the place where I normally get my propane refills told me I couldn't go bigger than the 6kg because of differing screw sizes of the outlet where you screw in the regulator. I thought it sounded like nonsense.. is it? The place is a garden centre, nearest I can find. Maybe they were on about the ones where the outlet is straight up..
I've always used 13KG bottles... bog standard bottles with the outlet to the side, and had no problems with my regulator fitting Kathryn
I've got the same as you Les! 13kg bottle got it from a garden centre /builders merchants a local family business
Mine is an 18K and a side valve, it has the regulator on there no problem! All set up today, and it's running fine too...at last lol :)
That's great news Mandy :)
He'd love my motorhome then 2x 13kg in the gas locker ;D
Seriously - my 13kg sits under my workbench, just take care to keep the hose away from bits of hot flying glass.
If anything is leaking you will usually smell it - I can smell leaks in the gas locker from inside the motorhome - they are usually because we have not quite tightened the regulator on properly.
Most Propane hose these days comes with an expiry date printed on it and you can get packs of little rubber washers suitable for propane to put in the regulator/tank connection to improve the seal, try your local camping shop.