Nearly all the beads I made Tuesday using CIM ginger as a base have cracked - >:( One set had Effetre amber and silvered ivory over ginger and the others were CIM Sangre and Clockwork layered over the ginger. The ones that haven't cracked are where the transparent hasn't fully encased the ginger. My guess is that it doesn't like being encased. Any one else had any problems with it?
I believe there are a few CIM colours that aren't so hot on being encased, not sure if ginger is one of them?? I have to say, I've stopped encasing CIM just to be on the safe side - and because I was getting fed up with the cracks!
I know that Celedon doesn't like to be encased with lauscha - it works fine with Effetre diamond.
You do have to be careful as some of them have to annealled at different temps - I'm not sure of ginger is one of them or not??
You can always email Kathy at CIM - here is her email Kathy@CreationIsMessy.com - she's always been very helpful when I've asked her questions.
Let us know how you get on!
Trudi
I find beads I make with the milky colours like halong bay have a tendancy to crack..
Quote from: turnedlight on January 08, 2009, 02:20:29 PM
I find beads I make with the milky colours like halong bay have a tendancy to crack..
Halong bay is one that need the annealed at a higher temp - here's part of the email I had from Kathy:
You don't necessarily need to adjust to the highest temp – the lowest should be fine and also prevent your Moretti from slumping / sagging.
Cirrus 521 degrees C
Halong Bay 549 degrees C
Peacock Green 538 degrees C
I would turn up your annealer from 520 as a precaution. A lot of testers annealed at 520 C and did not have problems but as a best practice it really should be higher.
I haven't tried using my Halong much - but does anyone here know that If I turned my kiln up to 549°C - if my effetre glass would be ok?
Be good to know!
Thanks
Trudi
Oh that's interesting, I will tweak my temperatures!
I have emailed Kathy as I wanted something else - so hopefully she will look in here (fingers crossed).
I don't think there are that many that have to be treated a bit special - but I was thinking of printing off a chart and making notes - which I can have to hand. CIM do some great colours and many of them are far easier to encase than effetre!
Thanks for the information Trudi. I will try setting my temps a bit higher maybe to 520 and see if that makes a difference. Trudi - I don't know if I would go as high as 549 c - I think the Effetre might not do too well at that temp. Although I'm not exactly sure what temp Effetre would slump at but I would have thought that the softer opaques could do at that temp.
Quote from: Rachel on January 08, 2009, 02:58:47 PM
Thanks for the information Trudi. I will try setting my temps a bit higher maybe to 520 and see if that makes a difference. Trudi - I don't know if I would go as high as 549 c - I think the Effetre might not do too well at that temp. Although I'm not exactly sure what temp Effetre would slump at but I would have thought that the softer opaques could do at that temp.
I wasn't sure bout that either - I might try one day when I don't have too much stuff in the kiln just to see what happens!
you could run some glass rods through the kiln at the test temperature, supported on stilts and see if they sag. Remember to include known stiff colours and known droppy colours though (please, no jokes. Tan that includes you ;-)
Saves wasting any real beads.
Although I think the slump point of effetre is higher than that anyway - can't remember off-hand.
Personally I have found CIM to be a bit too temperamental for my liking. Which is a pity as they have some gorgeous colours.
Emma
I made lentil beads with CIM Chalcedony & CIM Electric Avenue but with some98coe frit from beadgoodies.com around their middles and encased in eferetti clear and annealed at 980 and more than half of the beads cracked...
This could have been the frit though .
Maz
Quote from: ejralph on January 08, 2009, 11:48:02 PM
you could run some glass rods through the kiln at the test temperature, supported on stilts and see if they sag. Remember to include known stiff colours and known droppy colours though (please, no jokes. Tan that includes you ;-)
Saves wasting any real beads.
Although I think the slump point of effetre is higher than that anyway - can't remember off-hand.
Personally I have found CIM to be a bit too temperamental for my liking. Which is a pity as they have some gorgeous colours.
Emma
Good idea - and could use half rods!
Quote from: ejralph on January 08, 2009, 11:48:02 PM
Personally I have found CIM to be a bit too temperamental for my liking. Which is a pity as they have some gorgeous colours.
Emma
I agree Emma. I can't be doing with temperamental glass - that's why I've never bothered with Lauscha tbh. It's a bit concerning though - now I'm wondering whether any beads I've made with the ginger before are going to be OK. A couple of the ones from the set have cracked over the last day or so which just goes to show that just because something comes out of the kiln ok it doesn't mean it's not going to crack at later date :(
So now I'm a bit confused. Does this mean that some of the CIM is incompatible with Effetre? The advice is to anneal higher but I'm wondering whether even doing that would make the beads stress free. Are they still likely to crack at some point?
My gut feeling with the CIM glass is that the viscosity is too different to other 104 glasses which is why there seems to be so many problems especially with encasing. CIM also seems to be very heat sensitive to me, and will crack on me in the flame even and hates being chilled by presses. Life is too short. I can't even get CIM to play nicely with itself, so for me it would be a tall order to even try using it with Effetre.
As to if your beads will crack later - well who knows. I had some Czech glass beads I made once that took a long while to go. I actually had to keep them in a box as they kept exploding. It took about 6 weeks, but one by one, they all went. It was so bad that Mr Man seriously wanted me to wear eye protection each time I opened the box to see who had died next!
Mostly I find though the beads will crack a day or two after cleaning if they are going to go. But there are no guarentees really. It can be a good idea to quarentine new colour combinations for a week or two, just to see how they go before selling them.
Emma
Does anyone know whether these CIM colours would behave OK if encased with CIM clear glass or would it still be the same issue. I have used some of those dodgy colours but not encased them. At that point I was batch annealing and did them on the same programme (had not had any info from sellers that there were any differences in the annealing requirement). Anyway I had them for a while before selling and did not have any cracks appear later.
Kaz
Quote from: Kaz on January 09, 2009, 08:45:45 PM
Does anyone know whether these CIM colours would behave OK if encased with CIM clear glass or would it still be the same issue. I have used some of those dodgy colours but not encased them. At that point I was batch annealing and did them on the same programme (had not had any info from sellers that there were any differences in the annealing requirement). Anyway I had them for a while before selling and did not have any cracks appear later.
Kaz
When I asked Kathy @ CIM about the Celedon she said it didn't like lauscha. It had cracked on me before - but I then tried it with the new effetre and it was fine! Not sure if that helps!
Quote from: turnedlight on January 08, 2009, 02:20:29 PM
I find beads I make with the milky colours like halong bay have a tendancy to crack..
All my Cirrus ones have cracked today :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: Kaz on January 09, 2009, 08:45:45 PM
Does anyone know whether these CIM colours would behave OK if encased with CIM clear glass or would it still be the same issue.
I'd love to know this too. I really should've ordered some CIM clear with my last glass order.
Celadon definitely doesn't like Vetrofond encasing either. It has rather put me off CIM glass altogether to be honest as I encase lots of my beads.
I have wondered whether some of these colours really have the COE value that they say.
Drew Fritts recommends that the real test of an annealed marble is to put it in the freezer (in a sealed plastic bag). I think the same must be true of an annealed bead - if it doesn't crack after that you can be pretty confident it won't after making up into jewellery. (Drew also jokes that if it does crack, you'll be glad it was in the plastic bag).
There was a bit about this in another thread http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3745.0 (http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3745.0) and we kicked about the theory that it might be encasing on cold days. There still haven't been many warm days since then for me to run any experiments but seeing as all the other beads I have encased on cold days are OK, I'm doubtful this is the reason.
BUT I went back to the batch of earlier beads that I mention in my postings in that thread and half of those have cracked; they survived for several days and then I stopped looking when I put them away. I'm so grateful I never used them in jewellery (because of the later batch where everything cracked, I lost confidence in all CIM encased beads).
Today, I pulled a stringer of Vetrofond clear and CIM Celadon. I tried really hard to make sure I had a 50/50% mixture of both glasses, one on top of the other. After pulling the stringer, I cut the middle foot out and it looks pretty straight by eye but when I compare it to a ruler, the centre of the stringer was bent out by 2mm. I'm not sure if this is enough to show incompatibility. Now I've finished making beads, I realise I should also have run this test using an Effetre glass as well - as that may well do the same! (Note to self to do this tomorrow).
I have also used the stringer ends containing both glasses in equal proportions to make a bead with. I'll be interested to see if that cracks too or whether it's just encased beads.
The stringer that I made with equal quantities of Effetre Periwinkle and Vetrofond Clear came out straighter than the CIM Celadon and Vetrofond Clear. The Effetre one has an off-set of 1mm whereas the offset on the CIM one is 3mm. I don't know if this is enough to prove the glasses aren't compatible and I imagine it would need repeating several times and by others before it could be viewed as conclusive.
The bead that I made with 50/50 mix CIM Celadon and Vetrofond Clear (not encased) has survived being frozen overnight so I'd be pretty confident about making jewellery out of it now.
I think what I'll do in the future if I encase CIM colours is to put the beads in freezer overnight and if they haven't cracked by morning, then I'll consider them safe but I think I'm just gonna leave CIM colours alone fullstop.