Have read through lots of threads and spent time on more than a few web pages and still undecided.....
I am enjoying playing with melting glass and making some jewellery for myself from my shed time. However people have started asking me to make things for them so I think it is time to consider a kiln.
Have come down to these 2 but not sure what to do....I would like to experiment more with other glass so am wondering whether it is better to invest in a bigger kiln now. But I also know that the kilns tend to hold there value so am thinking about staying with the bead cube until I decide to really do other work?
The thing that concerns me about the paragon is the weight. I am not sure where I will put the kiln and might want to move it so thinking the lighter option is probably better....I could go on because my head is spinning with pros and cons.....
Advice?????
Thanks in advance!
http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8776.0 (http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8776.0)
Don't know whether this might help.
Thanks, I have read that thread and lots more, my gut instinct is to go with the Bead cube, but should you buy a kiln on a gut feeling???
Quote from: finks on December 17, 2008, 08:51:56 AM
Thanks, I have read that thread and lots more, my gut instinct is to go with the Bead cube, but should you buy a kiln on a gut feeling???
I bought my caldera on gut instinct and have never regretted it :D Only you can decide :)
I bought a kiln after a year of deliberation for fusing (I hadn't discovered lampworking then). I have since bought a paragons sc3 which is perfect for the beads. I must admit I have had thoughts of selling the fusing kiln as it is so big and heavy and I do such little fusing these days. The point is whatever you choose now you might change in the future so if you have done your research it probably is down to gut feeling. What you don't have you won't miss so to speak.
Good luck.
I love my caldera as it is so handy for small amounts of fusing and also good with the bead collar. However I do also have a larger kiln, inner diameter 50 x 40, which I also would not be without.
The caldera is cumbersome to move but can be moved in sections however I wouldn't recommend moving it regularly.
Do you live near to anyone who has a kiln so you could see close up what's involved. You are certainly welcome to come and see mine if you are anywhere near preston.
I love my Caldera as well - I am in Derbyshire and you are very welcome to pop over and visit it if you are any where near.
Bead Cube is tiny and ultra portable. You could get quite a few beads in there hot annealling, batch annealing you'd get loads in. It will go up to 930C (ish?) so you could do small fused pieces and certainly PMC. I love it - it's easy to use and is the cheapest kiln on the market. It's from Kilncare so you've got good technical support. You need to consider the support you'll get from the supplier if you get the Caldera - make sure there is good cover in case it goes wrong.
You need to think about where it's going to go. The Bead Cube doesn't have any inner kiln furniture so you'll have to fashion a little mesh or something to hold the beads in at the back, but then again, I don't think the Caldera comes with anything either.
I think with the Caldera you need to get the bead collar separately so you'll need to consider how much it's going to cost with the extra cost and delivery as it's heavy. The Cube is really light to post.
There is also the safety aspect to consider - the Bead Cube has a concealed element but it is possible to jab a mandrel into the exposed elements of the Caldera so if you are a little cack handed you may need to think about this, although I'm sure most people manage to survive without electrocuting themselves.
The Cube certainly looks cuter than the Caldera but that's not the principle reason for buying a kiln! Dunno - I'd probably chose the Cube out of the two.
Thank you for all your words of wisdom.....I have done it!! I bought a bead cube... so excited.
The portableness (Sp?) was what finally swung it, that and I want to concentrate on beads. I am very easily distracted and have decided to stick to one thing until I am really good, then might branch out... when and if that happens I guess I might up grade.
My friend who convinced me last night that spending money on myself wasn't a bad thing and that I should do it was astonished tonight when I said I had bought it.... I said you told me to!!!
yeh Well done you. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Woohoo!
They're gorgeous little things :)
I have really, really looked at my Caldera and have to say it would take me a lot of trouble to point the mandrel into the elements. Mine has the collar at the bottom and a good height of firebrick - I think it would be virtually impossible to get the mandrel in where the elements are.
Maybe there are some where th bead collar goes at the top and this may be possible but no way on mine - what about yours Billie and Diane?
Quote from: Maytime on December 17, 2008, 09:25:20 PM
I have really, really looked at my Caldera and have to say it would take me a lot of trouble to point the mandrel into the elements. Mine has the collar at the bottom and a good height of firebrick - I think it would be virtually impossible to get the mandrel in where the elements are.
Maybe there are some where th bead collar goes at the top and this may be possible but no way on mine - what about yours Billie and Diane?
Must confess I also tried to see how a mandrel could hit the element after reading about it and decided I'd have to be a contortionist with an extra long bent mandrel ;D
Quote from: finks on December 17, 2008, 08:09:02 PM
..I have done it!! I bought a bead cube... so excited.
Congratulations!!! Happy times ahead. ;D
Quote from: dinah46 on December 17, 2008, 09:35:51 PM
Must confess I also tried to see how a mandrel could hit the element after reading about it and decided I'd have to be a contortionist with an extra long bent mandrel ;D
Fair enough - I think it was Emma (Ralph) who posted recently about the elements on the Caldera but if you have one (and are obviously still alive!) then it's clearly not an issue.
Quote from: dinah46 on December 17, 2008, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: Maytime on December 17, 2008, 09:25:20 PM
I have really, really looked at my Caldera and have to say it would take me a lot of trouble to point the mandrel into the elements. Mine has the collar at the bottom and a good height of firebrick - I think it would be virtually impossible to get the mandrel in where the elements are.
Maybe there are some where th bead collar goes at the top and this may be possible but no way on mine - what about yours Billie and Diane?
Must confess I also tried to see how a mandrel could hit the element after reading about it and decided I'd have to be a contortionist with an extra long bent mandrel ;D
No way on mine either. If the bead collar is in the right place (ie the bottom.. why would you put it any place else ???) then you'd need a fairly long mandrel, bent to an angle, and then you might hit the element. Does anyone actually know someone who has hit the element or is it a warning circulating it is possible because it's exposed...?
When I do combed glass, ( not very often now) I used my big old ceramic kiln which has exposed elements on both sides for the full height of the kiln. I don't think I managed to electrocute myself whilst using BBQ tools to comb the glass. I could be wrong. It does have a cut off switch which turns the elements off when the door is opened temporarily. Some people just worry over the slightest thing.
The caldera has a cut off switch too, for when the lid is opened. I'd just be interested to know if there has been an actual case. It's such a great kiln, it's a shame if people are being put off buying one because they think people are electrocuting themselves frequently.
I think if there had been several incidents that the kiln would've been withdrawn.
Probably.
Yep! You'd think so...
Quote from: Billie on December 18, 2008, 09:16:48 AM
The caldera has a cut off switch too, for when the lid is opened. I'd just be interested to know if there has been an actual case. It's such a great kiln, it's a shame if people are being put off buying one because they think people are electrocuting themselves frequently.
I think its probably just scare mongering to be honest - although to be fair I haven't inspected
every Caldera ever made ;D
Perhaps the earlier models were a little bit different in design - who knows.
The benefit of having elements that you can get to if necessary is that they can be replaced easily.
I think the deal is this:
If you build and sell kilns in the UK you aren't allowed to build it so that it is possible to contact a live element via a door while the kiln is on. In other words - a UK built kiln must either have a cut off switch which turns off the element while the door is opened, OR it must have an insulated element. i.e. even IF there is only the slightest possibility of touching the mandrel onto the live element it still shouldn't even be a possibility.
Yes, I take on board that you'd have to be a contortionist or a nutter to do so. In my experience there aren't many contortionist bead makers. BUT as a teacher I can give you a long list of emails sent to me from newbie beadmakers who are clearly nutters and haven't got a clue when it comes to keeping themselves alive. Seriously. I have sometimes spent evenings worrying about some people I've heard from.
YOU lot might be sensible, YOU might think it's scaremongering but then YOU may not get the calibre of email that I sometimes get. And if you think I'm whinging too much, it may interest you to know that I get emails which start "how do I........" from people that I haven't even taught. I get emails from people who have been taught somewhere else, haven't been taught ANYTHING about how to set up their equipment and then cheekily want free advice from ME about the safety of their kit. Go Figure.
SO - apologies - but I err on the side of caution - I have a duty of care to do so and I don't want to be sued by someone who has stuck a pointy steel thing into a kiln and lost. Especially if I had recommended it.
NOW - here's the unfairness bit. If you are importing foreign kilns into the UK the foreign manufacturer does NOT have to make a kiln whose elements shut off when the door is opened to stick in a mandrel. So you, as a foreign manufacturer can stick in any blooming element that you want. The UK manufacturer has to use an insulated element to get around NOT closing the power off when the door is opened. THAT is why UK kilns are more expensive than foreign kilns.
What's the HSE's position on this? Unoffically - unless there is a problem they won't intervene.
You know what - if that was the case for imported lower quality toys, or other consumer goods we'd all be outraged. BUT hey - it's only kilns. To my knowledge there has been NO fatality yet in the UK due to a beadmaker making contact with an exposed element. That's a good thing. But the thing about accidents is that it's always better to reduce risk and avoid accidents rather than have to clear 'em up when they happen.
Off me soap box now........
Well I'm certainly convinced to buy a UK made kiln! :D
The thing is, whatever the item is - someone is going have done themselves an injury with it. People are dumb. This is why hairdryers come with a label saying "Do not immerse in water" and why coffee cups from take-aways have "Caution: contents may be hot" on them.
Kilns are heavy. They're electric. They get very hot.
If someone hasn't broken a toe by dropping it / stuck something in the element / taken several layers of skin off somewhere I'd be very surprised.
Sal... it's lovely that you worry, but after you've made a suggestion, just add "please read up" and then you let people be responsible for themselves. If they go charging in without the faintest idea of what they're doing then I think they only have themselves to blame if it goes wrong.
I know that might sound a little harsh but I was on FH for three months before I fired up my torch. I spent those months reading everything I could find, asking questions and then jumping on Kaz when she offered an open day. I'm answering to this thread because I'm thinking about getting a kiln in the new year and so again I'm reading up on every related thread.
If someone isn't prepared to do even the slightest bit of research, then they're... playing with fire.
Sorry. Couldn't help it ::)
So, a caldera kiln has a shut off switch that activates when the lid is open (like Pat's old ceramic kiln), which meets UK requirements (Paragon won't ship to the UK without adding this and it costs an additional £50), but then kind of undo that by having an optional bead collar as you can, if you are very unlucky/try very hard, reach the element that way.
And Sal, I see where you're coming from on the recommendation front. Caution needs to be applied to any piece of equipment we use. And people who contact you... their tutors just assume a complete beginner already knows the safety set-up before they take a class, or something?! It should be gone through as a matter of course. I find that appalling.
Yes, well - The Caldera probably does shut off when the door is open, but the Bluebird - which is also a Paragon and has two wacking great big doors doesn't. And looking at the element on the Bluebird I can see that it is not insulated.
To be fair - I totally agree - you'd have to try REALLY hard to stick a mandrel up into the roof of the kiln. I've got the Bluebird and I haven't yet done anything daft with it. Read back in the thread and you'll see that I have stressed the point that you'd have to be unlucky or just plain stupid to have an accident by contacting the element.
BUT - believe me - people can be really unlucky and many normally sensible people can be unbelieveably stupid sometimes when it comes to health and safety issues.
We beadmakers operate in an environment that is really fraught with risk. That's RISK - which is quite a different thing to DANGER. Risk is something you need to be aware of, to think of and to plan for. Don't want to be a scaremonger but let's just consider:
Gas at pressure - check for leaks
Access and egress - can you get out if there's a problem?
Torch - are you adequately protected from a flame that can reach 1800 degs C?
Kiln - is it safe?
Fumes - are you ventilating?
Molten glass - are you going to drop it on your lap?
Glass rods - can they fall on you, or stab you?
We all love to make our beautiful beads, we all enjoy the process. Sometimes it is easy to forget that there are risks - serious risks - involved in what we are doing. Thankfully - to my knowledge so far there hasn't been a serious incident. But if there is you can bet that the Health and Safety Executive will take a dim view to nation of shed bound beadaholics melting glass, if there is a problem. We are at the moment totally unregulated and anyone can basically do what they want. 99% of people will be safe and sensible but you can't plan for the 1% who aren't, and the Darwin Awards are testimony to the fact of that.
I'm not a panic merchant but I did once use to be a Health and Safety officer. I've risk assessed kettles, lasers, printing presses - you name it. In a risk assessment the average bead shed would come out really badly - mine included - so all I'm saying is that you need to be AWARE of the potential hazards and even if you cannot eliminate the risk you need to make sure you can plan for and live with the risk.
Quote from: Billie on December 19, 2008, 07:42:22 AM
And Sal, I see where you're coming from on the recommendation front. Caution needs to be applied to any piece of equipment we use. And people who contact you... their tutors just assume a complete beginner already knows the safety set-up before they take a class, or something?! It should be gone through as a matter of course. I find that appalling.
There's a LOT of people teaching beadmaking now. Some of these people don't know enough about the safety aspects themselves to pass on that information. Some don't bother and yes, some just assume their students know already. Can't stress it enough - many people are fine, sensible and safe but there is always going to be someone who isn't. One accident is one too many.
Beadmaking is at the stage of being the Wild West - there are no regulations and no standards right now really only because nothing bad has happened. I personally would want to see that people have some understanding of basic safety issues in a lesson - but who am I to dictate to other people? I would go further than that and am trying to find out whether there is some kind of gas safety course - it's hard to find something which would be tailored to what we do. You can't go off and become a welder nowadays without some form of accreditation and that is pretty similar in terms of safety to what we do and yet anyone can do what we're doing. Don't get me wrong I really don't want to bog everyone down with loads of unnecessary paperwork or standards but when there are no real guidelines or standards there are going to be people who get taught beadmaking without even a nod to basic health and safety.
My Caldera does NOT shut off if the lid is opened.
I agree with Sal that whilst highly unlikely anyone could hurt themselves on the Caldera, the fact remains with longer 12 inch mandrels, you CAN reach the elements from the bead collar. I know, I just tried it. (with the kiln off, I hasten to add!)
Granted, you have to go in at quite an angle, but you know it was not quite so hard as I imagined it would be to find those elements. I can also see that someone who was busy re-arranging beads in the kiln, or trying to get more in piled up on racks in there could unwittingly touch the elements.
Do I think it likely? No. Not really.
Do I think it physically possible - yes, most definitely.
For that reason, I am not COMFORTABLE with the idea of using the Caldera in that way. Or should I say, more to the point - like Sal - I would not be comfortable RECOMMENDING OTHERS to use a Caldera and collar for hot garaging. Because Sal is right - there are some really, really silly people out there. Amazingly silly some of them!
HOWEVER - I still think the Caldera is the best kiln you can get for the money IF you want to do a lot of different things.
If you know you will only ever want to hot garage lampwork beads then there are probably other kilns better suited to that specifically. But if you know you will want to try anything from Art Clay Silver to Fusing, Ceramics and everything in between plus batch annealing - there really is no better kiln than the Caldera. Heck, you can even hire fire up to Stoneware and porcelain temperatures in the thing. It is an amazing piece of kit.
Mine is a workhorse and I love it! But then I batch anneal my beads. I just don't think the Caldera it is ideally suited to hot garaging lampwork beads. The whole concept of the bead collar is an afterthought and I cannot even see how the heat down there at the bottom of the kiln would be the same as higher up where the elements and thermo-couple are anyway. Certainly when I tried using the bead collar for hot garaging, polarising filter tests on my beads afterwards showed sketchy results. Hence my decision, along with my safety concerns, to keep my Caldera as a batch annealer and look for a different kiln if I want to hot garage work.
Emma
Good thread.
Quote from: ejralph on December 19, 2008, 09:50:58 AM
My Caldera does NOT shut off if the lid is opened.
Mine was imported from Paragon in the States (via Jim at Bluemoon) in April 2006 and they wouldn't ship it without the shut off device because it had to meet UK regs (I don't think it's a requirement if it's sold within the States). Mine shuts off when I open the lid (but obviously not when I lift the hatch on the bead collar for the occasions I hot garage but how many beads I can get in this way also limits how frequently I use it). Maybe it's caldera's from a certain date with the safety shut off (for lid, not bead collar)... :-\
But I do, when I have the money, want a MAXine so I have ample room for hot garaging.
My lid is just a lift off jobby. No hinge or shut off.
But I don't see that your kiln would now meet the UK regs anyway since the kiln doesn't shut off when you open the bead collar flap. It surely is just lip service at that point to bother having the kiln shut off when the lid is opened? Gets the kit through into the UK without any legal issue for the importer and exporter in the chain, but offers nothing new to the consumer in terms of safety - only worse as it gives them the illusion that somehow their kit is "safer" because they have been told it meets requirements.
It is a moot point because most of us are not that stupid of course.
I am with you though - I really want to get a maxine when cash allows. I think that AND the caldera really would cover all bases perfectly.
Emma
Quote from: ejralph on December 19, 2008, 10:21:24 AM
My lid is just a lift off jobby. No hinge or shut off.
But I don't see that your kiln would now meet the UK regs anyway since the kiln doesn't shut off when you open the bead collar flap.
That's what I'm thinking TBH, so it's just as well I'm now in France :D But obviously I'm careful too!
Quote from: ejralph on December 19, 2008, 10:21:24 AM
I am with you though - I really want to get a maxine when cash allows. I think that AND the caldera really would cover all bases perfectly.
Think it makes for a well kitted studio. Just need save the pennies for that and a bobcat now.
That's strange though that some suppliers like Jim take note of UK regs and others don't. My Bluebird is clearly a Paragon and clearly was imported from the US and yet doesn't comply with UK standards ........ ???
Jim and I exchanged quite a lot of correspondence to make sure I got a kiln that was a "good fit" and I couldn't have been happier, with the final choice I made, or the service I got from Jim. I think we had a choice of 3 kilns, but gut instinct, and with media I want to work with later on, determined the caldera. Jim communicated everything to Paragon on my behalf to make sure it was wired for the UK, temp set to metric, and it met regulations and he got to me in a lot less time than we thought it would take.
He even checked with me after to make sure I'd worked up the nerve to switch it on and program it :D
I can't understand why, if paragon knew your bluebird was destined for the UK, why it wasn't up to regs :-\ Paragon shipped it direct on Jim's advice. Maybe your kiln went to a US supplier first, and then onto the UK...?
Nice to read something that reinforces that, for once, I made the RIGHT choice in getting the Maxine!!! Though there are dangers with putting mandrels into a new one as the little fibre curtain at the front is not sufficiently loosened up and it means that when you close the door, bead and mandrel can come flying out. I only had myself to blame when that happened to me though - as Lee has given quite clear guidance in respect of that in the booklet. And I have to say that the booklet is written in Plain English compared to the one I had with the Paragon which left me flummoxed - and I'm used to reading and interpreting difficult stuff!
Kaz
Well given the responses, I think that when I can afford a kiln I'll buy a Bead Cube.