Propane

[Enchanted Cobwebs]

Right - I have been reading lots on here about propane so I'd appeciate thoughts from you experenced guys on my set up

I have my workroom on the top floor of our town house almost attic level as the roof slopes. I have silversmithed in this room for years and now I have an ocycon and propane with a minor burner and I love it!

Gas is in the room with me, its in the corner between an old kitchen unit and the tumble drier (my room gets stuff that wont fit elsewhere too!) there is just a big enough gap to put the tank through into the wasted corner, its a 6kg one. This corner is in the slopy section. I work about 6 feet away with the oxycon on the opposite side of me. I have no outside space except a tiny yard where  we keep the bin so I cant get a shed or anything as that would have been better. Up to yesterday I just turned off the propane at the torch, I didnt see the point of turning off at the tank because I just didnt fancy emptying out the tube contents into my room and there are no kids around to mess with knobs.

So, do I really need to knock it off at the tank? whats the danger if I dont and what about emptying out the pipes is that really necessary? Isnt this what people run cookers off etc?

Any help appreciated
Thanks
Helen

[Kaz]

OK I'll have a go at this one!
The reason why I would bleed the pipes at the end of each session - which means switching off the propane whilst the torch is still lit and allowing the propane in the pipes to actually burn off. a) any potential leak is more likely to be in the rubber hose than in the tank b) if it leaks out it will not stay in your attic room but will find its way down to the lowest point in the house (ground floor) and pool there. You may see it or smell it, but you may not. You may then use the ignition on your boiler or on your cooker or you may have a mate round who smokes and then it may just go ka-booom!!! Personally I just would not risk having a tank of propane in the house, but if I had to I would make sure I bled the pipes every time I had finished torching.
Kazx

[Enchanted Cobwebs]

Aah..burning the propane off... I misunderstood in that you just let it escape and I didnt fancy that. This makes way more sense. Is there any device that detect if there is propane pooling? Thankfully no smokers in the house but gas cooker on ground floor boiler etc
Thanks
Helen

[SilverGems89]

leaving propane in the hoses will make them perish sooner also! plus think about it, the tank will not spontaneously combust or start leaking for no reason, however the hose can very easily be damaged and start leaking, with the tank left open you could end up with the whole tanks worth of propane leaking into your house, rather than any small amount that may have been left in the hose!

[Billie]

Helen, have a read through this

http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20013.0

If you've had a lesson, some health and safety aspects should have been covered.  If not, or if the information on the day was overwhelming and you've forgotten bits the above might help 

[Kalorlo]

There are LPG alarms you can get that detect propane and butane (place them low down for propane). I got mine from Amazon.

Sarah (silverlemon) also mentioned this recently about why you want to bleed your hose when using a Minor in particular - the valve in it prefers to have no pressure when the torch is off.

I definitely wouldn't leave the tank switched on!  Apart from anything else, we occasionally have mice, and what if they damaged the hose? You'd get the whole tank full leaking out.

[Enchanted Cobwebs]

One lesson a few years ago but on Mapp gas since then I have just read passing the flame. I have a fire blanket an a bowl of water but reading all this I need a bucket and the bowl is not in the right place, I also need a fire extinguisher. I think I also need to get the pipes off the floor as if a hot blob drops it might hit the pipes.
Is a smaller tank safer as I could disconnect and put outside when I'm finished or would disconnecting and reconnecting just cause more problems?  I did ask Martin Tuffnell before I bought the kit and he said there was no problem to have it in the house. Now I'm too scared to light it up!

Thanks
Helen

[SilverGems89]

I did ask Martin Tuffnell before I bought the kit and he said there was no problem to have it in the house. Now I'm too scared to light it up!

Don't be scared, mine lives in the house all the time because i cant store it anywhere outside and i wouldnt fancy lugging it up and dowstairs all the time anyway (i have a 13kg tank), just be sensible about it and you shouldnt have many problems!

[Lush!]

What's the bucket of water for?  I have a jar of water to drop hot bits of waste glass into and cool my tools etc.

[Billie]

Lots of people are without the option of having their gas outside for one reason or another.  You just need to be aware of the safety implications, how to keep yourself and home as safe as possible, and what to do in the event of an emergency.  All the information is on the forum, and there might be a lampworker nearby who is willing to run through the set-up and safety steps with you 

[Enchanted Cobwebs]

Thanks silvergems89 and Billie - knowing I'm not the only person having it in the house helps. Its good that I'm scared (I was before but now even more) it will make me very careful


Lush - the bucket of water? its just in case I set fire to the place but I might be getting carried away! I have one hell of an imagination but really the danger probably isnt when I'm making beads but when I leave the tank unattended. I will take it out of the house for sure when we go on holiday.
Maybe I need to chill a bit!
Thanks for all the help
Helen

[♥♥Tan♥♥]

My tank is indoors and has been for the last ten years or so, I have never had any problems.....touch wood........my hoses are hooked under the table using cup hooks, just to keep them out of the way. You don't need a bucket of water but a fire extinguisher is cetainly a must.

Are all your work surfaces and under them as fireproofed as possible?

Saying this, it makes no difference how careful you are, a big old rod of clear shattered in the flame today and a bit pinged across and sat on my lip for a while............hurt like a bugger but its ok now

[Redhotsal]

Well, I'm not an expert but there are a couple of things I would perhaps point out to you if you are storing propane in the house.

1) Do make sure it is legal. I heard somewhere that it was not legal to use propane above a first floor. Can't remember where I heard that and I can't vouch that it is true or not. But the hazard to having a propane leak on an upper floor is that the leaking propane has a habit of travelling along the floor/ceiling cavity. This makes it extremely risky as you don't know where a possible leak may surface.

2) Check your insurance. It's sort of up to you whether you get in touch with your insurance provider (as you could be opening a big can or worms with this) but you might want to check out your policy for specific wording relating to gas cylinders, or you may find out your house insurance is nullified. Again - tread very carefully on this one.

3) Yes - burn off your gases and always, always turn the gas bottle off at the bottle, for all the reasons Kaz has pointed out.

4) If you are going to have this arrangement, do yourself a risk assessment. In other words, look around your work area as if you are a stranger entering that room for the first time.
Ask yourself questions like:

Can you enter or exit your work space safely (i.e. do you have to negotiate old bikes, tumble dryers, beds, etc....) or is it a quick and straight route for you to leave if you had to leave quickly?

Do you have to pass by the cylinder to leave the room?

Are there any flammable objects or materials in your working area?

Have you taken every precaution to make sure there are no trailing hoses, wires or things that you could trip over? This is especially important with gases as a trip or a knock could pull at a hose and create a leak.

Are your hoses in pristine condition? If they are cracked or damaged in any way get rid of them and replace them. Yes, it's a pain but blowing up the house is way more inconvenient.

Have you checked for leaks throughout your equipment? Don't know how? Go to B+Q depot and buy a proprietory leak detector fluid (it's like very thick detergent). Paint it on every joint on your equipment. Start at the propane bottle and work your way up to the torch itself. Pressure up the equipment. A leak will present itself as visible bubbles (a bit like when you check a tyre for a leak). Don't live with it if you have a leak - sort it out, immediately. Propane has a very pungent smell, but you may not notice it, especially above ground level.

What is your contingency if you have a leak? What is your contingency if you have a fire? Do you have a phone nearby? Is there anyone else you would need to consider if the unthinkable happened? Neighbours, for example?
It's a hideous thought to contemplate - I considered it the other day with my shed. If I had a leak and it went up it would go in a matter of seconds, not minutes - a bucket of water wouldn't help at all, and it would probably take much of the kitchen and ground floor of the house. It's a scary thought - but you must think about it and decide what you would do.

5) Have a word with the local fire fighters. Again - it's not always easy to involve the "authorities" but as far as the local fire brigade go they are only interested in making things safe. I doubt they would be interested in wagging a finger at you. Why not phone them (maybe anonymously) and just tell them what you're doing? They may present you with some sensible solutions and suggestions. It's also handy for them to know about things like this as if there was a problem and they were called out they would at least know about a gas cylinder on the premises.

6) Maybe you'd be better off working in your kitchen? Presumably there's an extractor hood above the oven? (You have'nt mentioned extraction) and the escape route is much shorter.

Don't want to frighten you at all and I don't want to be a finger wagger. I know that not everyone has the luxury of an appropriate dedicated space to melt glass in but if you aren't in a position to be melting glass safely you have to really look long and hard at your working conditions. Incidentally - if you do have an appropriate dedicated space for lampworking you should also have a good old look at your surroundings too.

HTH