Do you sell anything? If so, wake up and smell the VAT of coffee!

ejralph · December 17, 2014, 05:56:12 PM

Lots of us here sell our beads.

Many through our own websites, facebook etc. Most of us selling are under the Vat threshold and want to keep it that way. Naturally enough - no-one wants to hand over 20 percent of every bead sale before they have to.

But it really surprises me how absent so many bead sellers are from the Digital Vat discussions. I don't mean to be rude here - but do you guys not see the storm coming??? This WILL affect you soon enough.

Let me break it down really quickly for simplicity's sake. VAT must now be applied to ALL digital sales with NO thresholds. From the first sale, you are obliged.

OK says you. "I don't sell digital goods" or "I have a way to include enough manual intervention - it doesn't apply to me"

BUT THEY WILL ROLL IT OUT TO PHYSICAL GOODS as soon as 2016. WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY ALSO REMOVE OUR VAT THRESHOLD FOR PHYSICAL GOODS SALES?

We have no reason yet to believe that isn't a strong possibility. Read some of the guidence notes coming from HMRC about this and how they talk about "current" thresholds. Remember this - the justification for not having a threshold for digital goods was because some other EU states didn't and it would be unfair. Well some EU states have no threshold for physical goods either.

So my point is this - if keeping your vat threshold matters to you - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED. Don't leave it to the few of us to campaign to save YOUR business. Show up and help us with the digital tax campaign.

Because one campaign naturally flows into the other. If we don't take a stand and show our thresholds matter to us now, we'll have even less chance of protecting them when this rolls out further.

We need to show that removing the thresholds for physical goods would be unacceptable. How can we do that if we don't first voice our anger at their removal for digital goods - after all this is just the first step, the thin end of the wedge.

No-one is asking much of you other than to stop thinking it is someone else's problem. If you sell anything - hey, even if you buy - this will affect you somehow.

All you need to do is a few things. Sign the new petition. Take the survey. Offer up a case study if the digital vat issues affects you or write to your MP / MEP

But at the very least sign the petition and fill in the survey. If you help the artists out there affected by the digital vat campaign, you may just find they win some rights and set some precedents that will help YOU when it comes to physical goods a year from now.

You'll find links to the petition, survey and more here
http://euvataction.org/take-action-now/

Lotti · December 17, 2014, 06:12:01 PM

Thank you Emma, well said. I think up till now folks have just thought it was the digital side (and yes Christmas is comming and everyone is busy), but we mustn't be in this situation in a year on from now. And it must be stressed that even if you don't sell digital services (tuts, ebooks) you buy them, this could affect supply too don't forget.

Redhotsal · December 17, 2014, 07:13:27 PM

I totally agree. I would echo what Emma says - yes, the change in 2015 will only affect digital downloads but the proposed 2016 change will affect ANYONE who sells ANYTHING to the EU and even if you don't sell to the EU it will also affect you as you will be asked to prove where your sales are going to. It's quite sinister and it's incredible that many people do not know anything about this.

ejralph · December 17, 2014, 07:48:03 PM

The analogy I have been using all day is - you wake up to find your husband packing his bags and leaving "Why so glum? You've had 6 years to prepare for this, I put all my intentions down in a letter back then. You should have known there was a letter and asked me to see it!"

I get tax return notices and other stuff every year - not once did they ever say "hey, there's a new law that might affect you coming in"

So what possible notice will we get when it rolls out to cover physical goods as well?

The ONLY thing that will stop them going too far on the physical goods side is if we all help now to make it obvious that the digital vat tax is unpopular and unwanted.

The logic of it is insane anyway. They claim it is to level the playing field and make the amazons and apples of this world pay their share. Urm - excuse me, I think it was corporation tax we wanted them to pay, did we really give a stuff about 5 percent discrepency in vat here and there?

So instead, they come up with a plan that basically makes all the small businesses have to sell THROUGH amazon and apple. ANd somehow that is better and fairer for us all?

They must think we're really stupid. Oh wait - we're doing practically nothing about it. We must be.

Emma

lampworklover · December 17, 2014, 08:14:47 PM

Well put.

I must admit I initially thought 'it doesn't affect me', but then you start reading and realise it does. I buy tutorials, so it will affect those people from whom I buy. I sell beads, and if the VAT threshold is lowered for that, there really will be no point any more.

I signed the petition, and also completed the survey; neither took more than a few minutes of my time; if we all did it maybe someone would take notice.

Pauline · December 17, 2014, 08:52:26 PM

survey signed and hopefully shared on facebook

Jellybean · December 17, 2014, 09:05:57 PM

Done

ejralph · December 17, 2014, 09:38:43 PM

Thank you ladies one and all.

Trust me - there IS a point to every single share, every single signature, every single survery response, every single email. The EU Vat auction peeps are having very useful meetings at senior levels and they are putting forward our case. It IS being slowly understood by the powers that be that we, small business, exist.

But they really need momentum.

As that 90s band said. "If you tolerate this, then your lampwork will be next" .... or something like that anyway

Emma

Redhotsal · December 17, 2014, 11:00:40 PM

It's amazing to me that this is not a major item in the general media. I know there was a piece on You and Yours the other day but although I have petitioned Radio 2 twice to feature this on Jeremy Vine I have been blanked. Yet - they seem to think it pretty important to feature the MP's wife who likes to sell Chanel soaked photos for a tenner and people who walk through doors leading to nowhere....

Redhotsal · December 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM

For those of you that do Facebook there is a very well informed group on there called "Digital VAT 2015". Here's a link:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DigitalVAT2015/?fref=nf
I would urge people to join and if not at least have a look. This may not affect you next year but if you are a small business and selling ANYTHING (not just digital downloads), then it will definitely impact on your business in 2016.

It's quite a busy and active group on Facebook - so if you are brand new to this and want to read an extremely clear, easy to read summary of what will happen, I found this to be very useful: http://www.clarejosa.com/articles/from-passion-to-purpose/what-you-need-to-know-if-youre-relying-on-your-payment-processor-to-dig-you-out-of-the-vat-moss-mess/

Lotti · December 18, 2014, 09:53:27 AM

Quote from: Redhotsal on December 17, 2014, 11:00:40 PM
It's amazing to me that this is not a major item in the general media. I know there was a piece on You and Yours the other day but although I have petitioned Radio 2 twice to feature this on Jeremy Vine I have been blanked. Yet - they seem to think it pretty important to feature the MP's wife who likes to sell Chanel soaked photos for a tenner and people who walk through doors leading to nowhere....

I know! And after the twitter storm when loads of us were tweeting to the BEEB as well as MP's, MEP's HMRC etc etc, you would think there would be something in the news about this!

Lotti · December 18, 2014, 09:57:31 AM

Quote from: Redhotsal on December 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM
For those of you that do Facebook there is a very well informed group on there called "Digital VAT 2015". Here's a link:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DigitalVAT2015/?fref=nf
I would urge people to join and if not at least have a look. This may not affect you next year but if you are a small business and selling ANYTHING (not just digital downloads), then it will definitely impact on your business in 2016.

It's quite a busy and active group on Facebook - so if you are brand new to this and want to read an extremely clear, easy to read summary of what will happen, I found this to be very useful: http://www.clarejosa.com/articles/from-passion-to-purpose/what-you-need-to-know-if-youre-relying-on-your-payment-processor-to-dig-you-out-of-the-vat-moss-mess/

With Sal here, please check out this group, it is very useful and very interesting and lots going on. An update post the twitter storm (hashtags #EUVAT and #VATMOSS) below from the group page. It seems that the EU is finally paying some attention but we need more, more case studies, more lobbying. Please read this post and please, even if it is just signing the petitions and writting to your MP then it will all help. If we can do something now about the digital sales side we can (hopefully) do something about the material/physical sales.

Here is the link to the info about what is happening with the EU commission.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DigitalVAT2015/permalink/1512621655681812/

flame n fuse · December 18, 2014, 10:08:24 AM

has anyone contacted 38 degrees? http://www.38degrees.org.uk/

flame n fuse · December 18, 2014, 10:33:20 AM

petition signed, MP and MEP emailed, MSP is next

Lotti · December 18, 2014, 10:53:31 AM

Quote from: flame n fuse on December 18, 2014, 10:08:24 AM
has anyone contacted 38 degrees? http://www.38degrees.org.uk/

Yup, that was the first petition to get Vince Cable to uphold the UK VAT threshold for sales in the UK, before that we would have had to pay 20% VAT on domestic sales but that has now changed.

Here is a fuller update from the website on the discussions held yesterday.

http://euvataction.org/2014/12/18/its-not-all-ears-its-action-too-in-the-european-commission-on-eu-vat/